It's failsafe not get out of jail free.

[Sweet Pickle]

Pretty inexperienced and still learning so I';m not being too harsh on myself.
Thought I';d share with you the first anxious experience 3 days into my new passtime.
So I';ve been out the last few days with the 450 frame quad purchased here in the FS forum. Overall I';m hugely impressed and delighted with my new hobby.
I';ve had a few days hovering around not straying more than 10m-20m, generally getting used to the sensitivity. I';ve been using a nice open field a couple of miles out of town. So far so good. No FPV gear fitted at the moment so I';m flying line of sight. Now the field I';m flying in has a hollow dip in it and is really quite large. The quad itself hasn';t displayed any erratic behaviour or instability so I';m starting to feel confident and push it out further. At about 60m I start thinking about turning it around as for LOS I';m starting to struggle to see orientation. I can just about see it rotating no problem but thats it. It doesn';t want to come back and is still drifting away from me. Signal is strong and as best as I can tell my Taranis shouln';t be troubled at all by this distance. At this point it';s drifting away still towards the incline of the dip in the field and I can envisage it running into the bank. No matter what I can';t gain elevation, it won';t lift at all  . No problem, I';ll engage failsafe. This appears to do the trick and I can see it lift up and start to come home. Panic over... So you';d think, it maintaines altitude but flew straight PAST me by around 15m and come to a halt above the trees in the forest behind me. At least this is where I';ve gained experience in realising RTH isn';t perhaps as precise as you';d imagine. Bear in mind I got good sat lock before taking off so I';d have asumed 5m accuracy should be achievable  . As soon as it overshot me and started heading over the forest I flicked back from Failsafe to atti... but to no avail. I couldn';t resume control and it started it';s slow painful journey down into the treetops. . Ironically, once caught in the trees control is handed back to me and I can hear the motors respond to throttle. So entwined in the canopy is the copter now that all the thrust in the world isn';t going to shake this bad boy down. Alone and miles from home I';m facing the prospect what to do. Now the tree itself is pretty robust and I';m fairly confident I can climb it, the braches the copter is caught in however are not stout enough to carry a sturdy 13st man. The decision is made to go to a nearby shop and buy some rope to lasoo the stranded beast. Lucky for me the local bits ';n'; bobs shop has a "washing line" for the princely sum of £1.30. Washing line is probably overstating  the capability of what I would call cheap string. Anyhow, armed with my "washing line" and half a brick I climb the tree to get closer to the quad. First attempt I toss out the brick only to see the "washing line" snap and the brick go sailing off into the forest. This could get tiresome I';m thinking as I climb back down the tree. Against all odds I recover the brick from the vegetation and try again. This happens 4 more times (I kid you not) and by now my 30m "washing line" is down to about 6m and I';ve doubled it up to 3m for extra strength. I';m a fairly determined character and managed the Black Mountain Challege this year in a pretty respectable time despite the awful weather. The Ascent of several of Wales';s finest peaks was a doddle compared to the effort of going up and down this bloody tree tossing a brick. As you can imagine I';m fairly peeved by now. On my 2nd attempt the arrival of 2 local youth on Mini Motor scrambler bikes to take the ****** out of me for a solid 40 minutes did nothing to improve my glum disposition. In fact as they were quizzing me as to the value of the copter sinister thoughts of them riding off with my prized possesion should I ever get it to fall to the ground are now slowing my determination to rope in the still blinking copter. Fortunately ridiculing a middle aged man swearing into the trees eventually wore thin and they rode off into the distance.  . One last heave of my brick/washing line hybrid grappling hook and at last I hit the sweet spot. A gentle tug this way then that sees the whole thing heading South to the ground. My hands sore from rope/washing line burns, my nads swollen from straddling a tree for a couple of hours, my face whipped from the branches, man and machine are finally re-united. A quick once over reveals the most damage of the day award goes to my "low hanging fruit" and surprisingly not the copter. For the most part it';s largely perfect with no visible signs of wear, seems I';ve lost a prop and a prop nut. This brings me to my main point and what irks me the most. I can handle the physical pain, I can handle the abuse from the youth, I can handle the fact you can never trust "washing lines" you buy from a £ shop. All these things I can take in my stride, what really gets my bloody back up is when it';s 50/50 why oh why do you always lose the bloody Left Hand nut that you';re not going to be able to replace anywhere local? I';ve got a couple of fully charged Lipo';s that I';m going to have to discharge on my charger because I can';t fly until I';ve ordered some pesky LH nuts from eBay that will probably take longer to arrive than it will take the bruising to go down on my badly mangled plums. Life really does have a habit of grinding you down doesn';t it? I';ve got a Screwfix, a B&Q, a Homebase, a Robert Dyas, a Wickes and old fashioned Iron Mongers all within 10 minutes walk of my house. That would be really great if anyone working in there didn';t give me a sideways glance when asking for a LH nut as though I';d asked them for a left handed screwdriver or a can of tartan paint. Bloody cretins. 
Glad I got that off my chest.

[robshaw]

Hahaha. What a brilliant story. Sorry to hear about your... Erm... Nads. Glad you got your copter back tho.
Im assuming your using a naza controller... Im surprised to hear the failsafe so far out.  I';ve found the failsafe/rth on my naza is bang on. Did have full green lights for gps lock? I would recommend getting the lock then powering down and back up again.  Then waiting for lock again. I tend to do this for every first flight at any new location.
Hope you get your left hand nut soon in package with your sky hooks and waterproof tea bags. ;-) 

[Hands0n]

Hello Sweet Pickle (that sounds so inappropriate coming from another geezer ) and thank you for sharing your tale of today';s adventures.   Good to see you';ve got a bit of a sense of humour to go along with damaged quad and sore plums. You';re going to need it

What size of LH nut do you need?  I don';t have the info but one or two of the lads on here who do the mechanical stuff for a living have some superb resources for the more esoteric bits and bobs that this hobby requires.   

It sounds like you';re doing the right thing, slowly and steadily pushing out further and further as your skill develops. Don';t rush it. 

With Failsafe - there is a specific switch sequence to get out of Failsafe with the Naza flight controllers (I';m assuming that is what you have as you mention Atti).  I believe you have to use the mode switch to switch from GPS to Atti to Manual and back again several times.  Only then will Failsafe disable and hand control back to you.  Also, make sure your throttle is at 50% when doing that otherwise if it is not then the aircraft will either fall out of the sky or shoot up into it!

You can watch the action of the switches in the Naza Windows utility to make sure that all three modes are switchable from your transmitter. Once done there then take it back out in an open field, fly out to about 30 - 40 meters and activate Failsafe.  Then use the switch sequence to get it out of Failsafe and regain your control of it.

Practising and rehearsing these actions is a good strategy to that you';ll automatically do it as and when needed.

All the best.

[guest325]

Great story so humorously put, seriously it';s par for the course - the main thing is to learn from what';s happened and do all you can to prevent it from happening again. Best strategy is to learn a routine of stick inputs that will tell you exactly where your model is heading,  don';t rely on the fc to get you out of trouble! They are known (quite well) to go awol and cause fly aways so always best to learn to fly with minimal intervention from the fc!

[xxpitt]

When I seen how long this post was I almost never read it, but glad I did. Glad you got it back

[Sweet Pickle]

Thank you all for your kind words and support.

Should have learned the getting out of FS method, I might have got out of the whole unfortunate ordeal if I';d known that.
Ordered 10 nuts from Amazon for £1.79 delivered so can';t complain.
I';ll certainly take on board the advice of getting lock, powering off and back on again. Strange thing is I was flying from exactly the same spot to the neerest 6" yesterday as the patch of dirt was flat and dry I took off from. I even calibrated it in exactly the same spot and that went perfect.

Superbright LED';s for LOS flight and FPV kit will be ordered later.... I';ve only hesitated so long because I can';t decide what to splash out on as priority 1. FPV goggles (skyzone) or a groundstation.
I think this hobby might hoover the bank account faster than my 2 kids... and that takes some going.

[kilby]

I would say before doing anything to add LEDs they';re cheap and make life a lot easier.

Just glad that you got it back

[ashutchy]

Dan, you';ve just had me in tears mate! You have exactly what';s needed for a hobby like this.........a great sense of humour! I';ll apologise as I was laughing long before I found out you managed to get it back, my bad. Honestly though, it was good to hear you perservered and beat the tree.......with your nuts by the sound of it!

[Ynot6]

1 watt LEDS from rapid electronics, use resistors to set the current, power from the naza (plenty of power at 5 volts on the gimbal ports).

[DarkButterfly]

I surprised to read that the Naza was so far out, glad you got it back even if your nads did take one for it
Personally I found the naza RTH to be spot on, even if it overshoots the landing area, it should circle then land.
Sounds like you had another issue going on, considering you couldn';t take back control when it came back over, in ATTI mode you should be able to take back control from RTH, I would suggest checking your Tx and Rx, esp if you use satellite receivers as I have known these to cause problems, mostly connectivity due to a loose connector, also check your Rx isn';t being blocked by carbon fibre components on your quad.

[Smeagol]

You made your adventures so humorous and true to life, most of us don';t relive the detail as well as you did - so 

I';m also surpised at the RTH overrun, I tested mine twice, on the first I made the mistake of not monitoring the LIPO voltage, it was way too low so the RTH failed on descent, and then tried again by returning to 20m damn concerning for a newbie like myself wondering what the heck was happening. The second test I can say was excellent.

Good luck with future expeditions, and keep blogging for us all to read

[robshaw]

To get out of naza failsafe you have to switch past Atti to manual then back again to gps. Simply switching to Atti won';t work.

[Hands0n]

To get out of naza failsafe you have to switch past Atti to manual then back again to gps. Simply switching to Atti won';t work.

That was it! And I';d advise checking using the Windows app Naza-M Assistant to make sure that the switches are actually selecting the three modes (GPS, Atti and Manual)  -  the on-screen segments should turn blue for each switch position.

[DarkButterfly]

To get out of naza failsafe you have to switch past Atti to manual then back again to gps. Simply switching to Atti won';t work.

that';s intresting as I only have a two position switch on my DX6i, so I';ve set it up to go between GPS and ATTI, no manual mode at all, I can regain control from RTL just by switching to ATTI mode.

[Friskle]

same, just flicking back to atti should be enough, going from manual to atti to GPS etc, is only for Compass calibration.

[robshaw]

Perhaps it';s something to do with setup then.  Reading the naza wiki it is in fact Atti mode that';s required then back to gps. Mine needs manual as does a couple of the guys at my club.  Weird.

[Sweet Pickle]

I do have it set to 3 way GPS ATTI/ATTI/MANUAL and all have a solid blue in the Naza assistant when I flick between. When I flick F/S it over-rides all 3.
Theres not a lot on there that could interfere with the signal... however I am concerned that I couldn';t gain altitude when it was heading towards the bank. I have the X8R  antenna positioned in the classic 90 degree V shape so signal should have been spot on I';d have thought.
The good news is it';s my birthday today so some special man treats are in order.... and that has nothing to do with my unfortunate swelling you filthy minded lot.  ::)
to everyone who have taken time out to reply.

[robshaw]

Happy Birthday ';Sweet Pickle'; (yes it does sound weird...)
Maybe you have just had a case of ';mysterious electrical sh*t'; Just for your reassurance I went over to uhf radio a while back and whilst trying to maximise the range of the radio I must have triggered failsafe 30 times over the course of a few days. Every time it was bang on if I allowed it to land. Or if I took control it worked every time too. I am using Naza Lite as I use ezosd etc and don';t require can bus from naza v2.
Ps deliberately triggering failsafe isn';t really recommended btw but that';s an example of how reliable it is. Its all based on your pre launch ';settle time'; in my opinion.

[kilby]

Happy birthday sir

[Hands0n]

Happy birthday SP 

Ps deliberately triggering failsafe isn';t really recommended btw but that';s an example of how reliable it is. Its all based on your pre launch ';settle time'; in my opinion.

I wouldn';t advocate dialling the use of Failsafe into a typical regime of flying.  But it has saved me a few times when I';ve lost sight of or orientation (in FPV) of where on this planet the aircraft is!   So having it on a switch is useful, if for nothing else, for bringing it back to you in "extreme" cases.

[flybywire]

Same as the others, my RTH/RTL on Naza or wookong M is always spot on, I would deffo check out your setup.  Of course it';s only as good as the satellite reception that it relies upon to get it back to whence it came, so if that went out? 
On my UHF setup (not that it is any different to PWM in this case) simply moving the switch to atti when back in range will cancel the RTH failsafe, I had a similar issue to Rob, and was triggering every time I flew!  It was annoying, but also reassuring when it landed on the spot for the tenth time!! 
(It';s another great feature of using the mini osd, as at least you know what it';s doing)
On one occasion the failsafe was triggered on the other side of a clump of trees, I saw the ';failsafe'; status on the OSD, it turned toward home, then hurtled towards the treeline!  I think the ground was a good deal lower on the far side of the trees, so must have confused it. 
If I hadn';t been able to cancel it and gain altitude, er, crash!
Check it out, re calibrate the compass/IMU if necessary, then test well away from trees.   

[Hands0n]

Check it out, re calibrate the compass/IMU if necessary, then test well away from trees.   

+1 on that - and also check that the Magnetic Declination is accounted for in how the compass/gps puck is adjusted relative to the multi-rotor.

Here';s a video link with all the scooby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6oDVQwUPwU

[Sweet Pickle]

Well, the fun doesn';t stop there.  :embarrassed
So I';m a little bit humpy because it took forever to "discharge" my LIPO';s because I';m paranoid about leaving them fully charged after reading around. I decided it';s the right thing to do though because there were no guarantee';s on how quick the CCW nuts I ordered would get to me. Sufficed to say discharge is very slow and what do you know? My nuts got here first thing this morning meaning they';re no sooner discharged than I';m charging them back up again ready for another session. Took a couple of days off for my birthday cos I';m a bit self indulgent like that. Anyway, whilst they';re charging up I take the time to order a few bits n pieces ready to go FPV  ::) ::). (I';ve got that to look forward to now.). So just past mid-day out I go with my charged batteries in search of a field where no trees dare to grow. Best to err on the side of caution.    . Taking heed of the advice on the previous page I get Sat lock, unplug, plug back in and get sat lock again. Set direction etc for IOC and surely I';m up for at least 30 minutes of fly time with my batteries primed and ready to go. The sky is blue, the breeze is kissing my cheek but it';s not windy. The sun is out and there';s a song in my heart. I';ve even done a few 360';s as part of the Calibration Dance so I know no pesky trees have crept up on me. Up she goes into the air, stable, solid. Virtually NIL drift or discernible movement it';s about as good as it gets. I push it out in a nice smooth motion, the copter throttle isn';t even at 50% and altitude is good movement is relaxed and steady. It';s about 20m out and I';m just practicing a bit of point to point, no Iceman Top Gun hi-jinks. Every turn is by YAW and not ROLL  and it';s as flat as a pancake and virtually stationary around 2.5m off the ground. In the blink  of an eye, far too fast to even take it what happened it flips over onto it';s side and heads towards the ground like a Shuriken.  . As I approach I know I.m already not going to like what I see and low and behold arm #1 is snapped just below the motor. The stupid HXT connector is also split and the connectors are out. No great shakes of course, not even expensive to fix (came with a spare set of arms but I didn';t think I';d need them this quick) I suppose you have to take it on the chin... but fer the love of god I have to discharge these bloody batteries again and I';m just about sick and tired of listening to the little fan whirring away in my man cave as I sit and watch more Youtube clips of Copters that manage to stay in the sky longer than 3 minutes.
Not only that I';m reluctant to bolt any more goodies onto is whilst it';s got this unhealthy obsession with running amock 2 minutes into the first flight of the day. What can you do eh?
What a fun hobby this is going to be  ;D

[guest325]

If the batteries you have are less than a couple of years old (I would have thought so) then you don';t need to keep on discharging them - if you';re going to use them within a week or so don';t bother. The battery chemistry is much better than it used to be; the most important thing is to keep them at a reasonably stable temperature. I keep mine at about 18 degC and have left them fully charged for several months!!!
Batteries go up in smoke if they are being abused, charged or discharged too rapidly or being subjected to physical damage.
Just keep them in a safe place at a stable temperature, all of this guff about keeping on charge - discharge is not necessary!

[flybywire]

that';s bad luck there SP.  time for some troubleshooting methinks!  did you find anything obvious that could have caused the dive?  i.e loose soldered joints etc.  I had a dry joint on the wire harness of my first ever quad, did a similar thing to what you describe.
Failing that, sounds like power/esc/motor to me.  Are you sure it just didn';t run out of juice?  All that unnecessary discharging/charging, easy to make a mistake and load up a partly charged lipo.
I suggest make the repairs, double check connections, then power her up without props, give it a good shake, see if anything gives.  Then test fly again, see if it dips the same way, if it does swap round esc';s first.  if it drops same way, swap motor round etc etc.

[Sweet Pickle]

To be honest I purchased it from the For Sale section of this forum from Andy so it came ready assembled. All I did was buy new batteries and a Taranis TX/RX. When I got it it was already stable and in very, very good nick.
As far as soldering goes, I didn';t do it but I have been soldering and reflowing etc. for 25 years. I have some of the best kit money can buy so I';m rather critical. Having given it the once over there';s nothing that concerns me. Nice shiny well flowed solder, no dry joints etc.
I have it stripped bare at the moment and the only thing I can think of as a point of concern is motor #1 spins ever so slightly smoother than the other 3. Thats to say there is less resistance when I spin in between finger and thumb. This is not massively noticable, just my perception.
I could swap motors, esc';s etc. but The crash happened so fast I';m not sure I';d know to compare it if it happened again. It was hovering there, then it was sideways on heading down. No Rhyme nor reason.
I';ve been scouring my brain trying to think if the arm was cracked as a result of Sunday';s incident and maybe it just broke mid air..... but that';s really unlikely these aren';t fast jets throwing 5 g';s. I don';t think there was any strain on it at the point of it';s wobbly.

Baffled.

[kilby]

You can get things like that happening with an esc getting unhappy after a crash,  as the pcb can flex and the few solder joints can cracks.  After that they can cut out in flight or when they warm up a bit, so it';s always handy to have a spare esc or two for testing.

As for always discharging lipos I wouldn';t bother unless you aren';t going to use them for a few weeks.

[Sweet Pickle]

Excellent.
All good info. Very green going into this so it';s all good experience.
Suppose I better get my hands on an Afro.

[ashutchy]

Morning Dan.

I said it was fun didn';t I! I can tell you';re enjoying it though.

On a serious note, how very baffling! It does sound more hardware and nothing Naza based so at least the FC can be ruled out, for now at least. My money is on one of my solder joints failing either through time or impact. That or perhaps an esc? I say this because of how quickly it went wrong! I like flybywire';s suggestion of power her up without props and give her some abuse! Perhaps run a full battery this way and monitor?

Sorry I can';t offer any more Dan but tbh it was incident free when I flew her.

Let me know how you get on with it please mate.

[flybywire]

SP, did you buy the radio gear separately? Sounds like the original incident may have been caused by loss of signal, it may have been about to go into failsafe anyhow?  I reckon the second incident when it flipped in was probably caused by some damage sustained in the tree crash, and subsequent pounding when it was released from said tree.
Can';t explain the drift in the RTh/RTL but that';s likely a calibration issue, or bad satellite fix/magnetic interference etc.  When you calibrate the GPS, make sure your phone etc is nowhere near you at the time.