Aircraft retrieval systems (black box)

[flybywire]

My recent lost model thread has prompted me to start a new thread specifically for the purpose of identifying what';s out there in terms of lost model retreival systems, so ideas on a postcard please..
Richard started the ball rolling with these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmc3gboiGkI
THey seem very robust, if a tad clumsy? 
Basically, in my musings last Sunday (as I trawled a corner of our great English countryside looking for my lost quad) I found it hard to believe that there didn';t appear to be a difinitive solution for this problem, given the state of technology today.  The two examples in the clip work on the ';strength of signal'; method, which is fine, certainly 100% better than nothing, and as Richard pointed out, had I used one, I likely wouldn';t be starting this thread at all!
Then I thought, well what if it wasn';t a 250, that pretty much ditches if you take your hands off the sticks, but a fully GPS autopilot enabled beast like my CX4 for instance, if that decided to up and leave without my consent, it could travel miles before the lipo got sucked, or it hit a tree/light aircraft etc.  So if I had my Yagi and UHF device, I could certainly follow the signal, but if it';s 5 miles away, that could take a very long time! 
So what about GPS?  Does anybody know of a small, light GPS tracking device that is self contained and would communicate with a smart phone app?  There may be stuff out there not specifically for models, I think Halfords do a tracker that works in real time for a car, but not sure if it would be useable or not?

BTW, I am aware of the beeper type devices that attach to a spare ch on your Rx, which I would imagine may be all that is required for a 250, lost 20ft away in dense undergrowth, but not 3 or four miles.   

[Desmoboy]

There are a number of Sim card based GPS devices locators that would do the job. Well, as good as mobile cell coverage is ever going to cover everywhere.
How much do you want to spend.

[Friskle]

Yep, some of the GPS pet trackers would most likely work, but again, costs.

[Desmoboy]

Exactly the same technology yes. Some of the cheaper ones use the cell data to triangulate. The better ones just report to you the lat and lon of where the device is.
If £50 is not too much then that';s the answer if it is then you have a problem.

[Friskle]

@50 quid, probably a small price to pay, rather than losing the whole thing :)

[Andy7]

One of the guys at a rocket club I used to go to used a GPS retrieval system for his rockets - but it crapped out the one time that his rocket came down in a nearby copse. He was gone for HOURS looking for it. We also spent most of the day looking for landed rockets in the rape field next to us - not a lot of fun.

I have a mind to design a little gizmo that would help to find a downed multirotor or other model - yes, a virtually indestructible (and waterproof) black box that';s independently powered, light and most importantly CHEAP.

[richardg6paj]

The only problem with a gps tracker is if the gps unit happens to land upside down or lands in deep vegetation, it won';t see the satellites . It also needs mobile phone coverage.
There';s nothing better than a radio beacon in my opinion.
I am looking at this one as well, although it looks like it needs an AM uhf receiver.
http://www2.pmb.co.nz/blog/?wpsc_product_category=trackers
Richard

[flybywire]

There are a number of Sim card based GPS devices locators that would do the job. Well, as good as mobile cell coverage is ever going to cover everywhere.
How much do you want to spend.

yeah, I';ve seen those, I get the feeling they are the ';excellent on paper'; solutions, for those who feel they need such a device, but never really expect to use it in anger!

The problem is also that apart from a catstrophic fly-away, say 1+mile, probably the most frequent lost models occur within a short radius, say 200 yds or less.  The SIM/gps devices sound great, but I wonder how accurate they are?  I dread making forced landings over cornfields/long grass (even 1ft high!) cause you need to tread on it to find it!

So, what it needs is a combination of features that will enable the owner to ';home in';, i.e start off with gps to drive/walk/cycle to the general area (or cornfield/wood forest) then an audible alarm/flashing light etc to give away the location of the lost model.
In other words, I could spend £30-£50 for a off the shelf gps tracker, but still be no better off if it lands in said cornfield!

[flybywire]

The only problem with a gps tracker is if the gps unit happens to land upside down or lands in deep vegetation, it won';t see the satellites . It also needs mobile phone coverage.
There';s nothing better than a radio beacon in my opinion.
I am looking at this one as well, although it looks like it needs an AM uhf receiver.
http://www2.pmb.co.nz/blog/?wpsc_product_category=trackers
Richard

Yeah, I think you';re right about the method Richard, although flyaways don';t follow roads, so it could be a fair hike!
I';ll take a look at the link tho.

Andy

[Desmoboy]

Negative or what

I';m new to this hobby and am only just learning to fly my hex with a Pixhawk.  Newbie or not i know how stable and accurate it holds position when i want it to. The exact same GPS technology is in the tracker so if less than 2 feet is too vague for you to find your lost craft then nothing is going to help you.

Of course you might crash upside down, or even into a lake and the tracker wont help. Nothing is perfect is it.

I will take the more positive approach and say, for £50 i might be more likely to get my Hex back than otherwise.

[G60jet]

what we need is an active RF tag that can be activated from fail safe on the radio.

then you just need some way of trianglulating the signal.

[flybywire]

The only problem with a gps tracker is if the gps unit happens to land upside down or lands in deep vegetation, it won';t see the satellites . It also needs mobile phone coverage.
There';s nothing better than a radio beacon in my opinion.
I am looking at this one as well, although it looks like it needs an AM uhf receiver.
http://www2.pmb.co.nz/blog/?wpsc_product_category=trackers
Richard

Yes, I like the look of that one, you appear to able to choose ready built or kit form, so should please all types.
Works out @ £107 for Rx & Tx.  THis may not be so bad, as you only need to buy the Rx once, the Tx';s are £19, so pretty cheap.

Bookmarked!

[Andy7]

What about a little module that will provide an audio locator on signal loss, but also will transmit a beacon signal which can give a "warmer / colder" indication on a little hand-held tracking device. Not sure how to get a direction indication until I do a little research, but that might be good enough for cheap gadget.
I reckon this might be within the realms of possibility.

Maybe also put a little space to add an "If found, return to" note for optimists :)

[G60jet]

http://www.gizmag.com/sticknfind-finding-system/25238/

[flybywire]

What about a little module that will provide an audio locator on signal loss, but also will transmit a beacon signal which can give a "warmer / colder" indication on a little hand-held tracking device. Not sure how to get a direction indication until I do a little research, but that might be good enough for cheap gadget.
I reckon this might be within the realms of possibility.

Maybe also put a little space to add an "If found, return to" note for optimists :)

yes, I like the sound of the beeper as well as radio beacon, although watch the clip, it does look convincing, in the cornfield for instance, I think it would work ok, as you simply follow the signal strength until you step on it!

[flybywire]

http://www.gizmag.com/sticknfind-finding-system/25238/

Well it certainly looks light in weight, the range (100ft) is a little worrying tho!  I have seen these chip devices before, but they rely on a grid of other smartphones to work, like in a city/town for example, not in the wild countryside.

here';s that ';tile'; I mentioned, but again it';s limited to witin 100 yds of a tile enabled phone.
https://www.thetileapp.com/how-it-works

[Andy7]

yes, I like the sound of the beeper as well as radio beacon, although watch the clip, it does look convincing, in the cornfield for instance, I think it would work ok, as you simply follow the signal strength until you step on it!

Signal strength might give some false readings as you pass by trees and things. I was thinking of something like a ping from the tracker to get a distance measurement. Should be possible with some of the faster arduino processors which are as cheap as chips. Add that to something that can determine direction (can make this an option for those with the £££s)and you';ll have a neat bit of kit... then add a little screen for those with money to burn and you';re in business!

[flybywire]

Signal strength might give some false readings as you pass by trees and things. I was thinking of something like a ping from the tracker to get a distance measurement. Should be possible with some of the faster arduino processors which are as cheap as chips. Add that to something that can determine direction (can make this an option for those with the £££s)and you';ll have a neat bit of kit... then add a little screen for those with money to burn and you';re in business!

There you go!  This is the kind of discussion I was looking to trigger, in other words, set somebody off with some design ideas.  You make it, I';ll buy it!
P.S I';m afraid as soon as anybody mentions the word ';Arduino'; I switch off. 

[Andy7]

Well, this kind of project is right up my street / alley (what';s the expression now?)

I';ll see if I can come up with some ideas, build a prototype, sell a couple here as testers then see if any of the vendors here want to flog it. :)

[richardg6paj]

Negative or what

I';m new to this hobby and am only just learning to fly my hex with a Pixhawk.  Newbie or not i know how stable and accurate it holds position when i want it to. The exact same GPS technology is in the tracker so if less than 2 feet is too vague for you to find your lost craft then nothing is going to help you.

Of course you might crash upside down, or even into a lake and the tracker wont help. Nothing is perfect is it.

I will take the more positive approach and say, for £50 i might be more likely to get my Hex back than otherwise.

No Mate, not being negative at all, I like the idea of the GPS tracker, just repeating what I have been told by people who have experience. So yes spend £50 on a GPS tracker, but if your expensive hex and equipment decides to fly away for whatever reason and lands on it';s back you';ll have wished you';d have spent another £50 on an RF tracker. So fit both, no big deal.
You won';t realise the sickening feeling you get when you lose a multi and you think it will never happen to you, It happened to me, I don';t want it to happen again. Hope it doesn';t happen to you!
Regards
Richard

[Andy7]

Well, this kind of project is right up my street / alley (what';s the expression now?)

I';ll see if I can come up with some ideas, build a prototype, sell a couple here as testers then see if any of the vendors here want to flog it. :)

Okay, so let';s see if we can pin down a couple of parameters here so that I can hone the design:

1. What kind of price are people prepared to pay for one of these? I';m getting the feel that £50 is about right.
2. Vendors: What kind of trade-price would you want to buy these for? (Yep, we all need to make a living).
3. What sort of range do people think is going to be needed? (1km radius, more?)

[flybywire]

Okay, so let';s see if we can pin down a couple of parameters here so that I can hone the design:

1. What kind of price are people prepared to pay for one of these? I';m getting the feel that £50 is about right.
2. Vendors: What kind of trade-price would you want to buy these for? (Yep, we all need to make a living).
3. What sort of range do people think is going to be needed? (1km radius, more?)

That';s more like it!
Well pricing is a little tricky, as if it';s totally self contained, it coukld be used in more than one aircraft, so could cost more, if you need one per model, then I guess £30?  More if it';s quick attach.  How many planes can you fly at once?
Range wise, to be useful, I would say, ideally up to 5 miles, not sure if that';s realistic or not tho?  As I say, I know little about this subject, just that I want one!!

Just thinking aloud here, but a blended device, GPS and UHF, with audible as well for the cornfield scenario, in a sealed container.  Oh, yes and a flashing light as well!

GPS to get to the ';crash zone'; (say within 50 sq yds) UHF to home in to the signal beacon, beeper for finding it in long grass/ditches/roofs/haystacks etc.  Not much to ask really.

Edit: I feel convinced that as of today, the technology exists to do exactly what I have stated above.  I';m not sure if it just exists in high end commercial applications, or milliatary research labs, but if you take the number of folk involved in flying model aircraft worldwide, that number is certainly in the millions.  Are you seeing those $ signs yet?
As Richard has pointed out, there are a few outfits making trackers, I';m just not convinced that we';ve seen the best that can be produced, in fact I';m certain of it.  Also if they are so good, why don';t we all have them?  Is it price?  complexity?  Or do they simply not work effectively.
BTW, if anybody uses one of these UHF trackers, please feel free to interject here.

Had another thought!  Maybe they';re just not ';sexy'; enough?  If it looked the part, i.e brushed aluminium case, flashing led (like DJI remote LED) pull pin to arm etc, maybe it would appeal to a wider audience?

[Andy7]

That';s more like it!
Well pricing is a little tricky, as if it';s totally self contained, it coukld be used in more than one aircraft, so could cost more, if you need one per model, then I guess £30?  More if it';s quick attach.  How many planes can you fly at once?
Range wise, to be useful, I would say, ideally up to 5 miles, not sure if that';s realistic or not tho?  As I say, I know little about this subject, just that I want one!!

Just thinking aloud here, but a blended device, GPS and UHF, with audible as well for the cornfield scenario, in a sealed container.  Oh, yes and a flashing light as well!

GPS to get to the ';crash zone'; (say within 50 sq yds) UHF to home in to the signal beacon, beeper for finding it in long grass/ditches/roofs/haystacks etc.  Not much to ask really.

Adding GPS is going to push up the price, though it might be worth having the system just pull data from the flight GPS and retransmit the last known position. That way no extra hardware is needed on the module and it';s all in the software.
You can then have two versions of the receiver, for whether you want to bother with GPS or not.

Beeper is a given. Flashing light may be of limited use depending on how you crash, how you';ve mounted the box etc.

I guess if you want to mount on multiple models, you can get multiple black-boxes and just one receiver. You can then pair the tx/rx if you';ve got more than one person int he area with black-boxes (or, multiple crashes!!!!).

Range-wise, I suppose that it only needs to be as far as your FPV / TX. You might not get the best signal at the bottom of a ditch, so I suppose I';d need to make this about 2x the power of the average FPV.

(this is FUN!)

[ashutchy]

Looking at other trackers on the market and they all seem to share the same limitation.........range. The ones that do cover a larger area are a larger price! If you could manufacture something close to the £50 mark I';d be up for one and don';t think I';d be alone either.

[Andy7]

... okay, paring the design down some more (make it cheaper!)

If we want to assume that your craft has GPS (as most serious flyers would). Then how about the tracker unit (or a variant of it) is a device that connects to your phone via bluetooth and uses an APP on the phone to bring up a map and use the phone';s GPS to guide you to the last known position.

The black box would then just sniff the GPS signal between the GPS module and the FC. It could also, even keep a record of the GPS signals and send back a path that the craft was following, and show the last known heading and speed.

[Andy7]

Looking at other trackers on the market and they all seem to share the same limitation.........range. The ones that do cover a larger area are a larger price! If you could manufacture something close to the £50 mark I';d be up for one and don';t think I';d be alone either.

If, making the assumptions in my last post, that we can use GPS, then we won';t need to use a ping loop - that means that all the device needs to do is send out a casual data stream, which can be at a lower rate and therefore we can achieve a longer range...

[flybywire]

Looking at other trackers on the market and they all seem to share the same limitation.........range. The ones that do cover a larger area are a larger price! If you could manufacture something close to the £50 mark I';d be up for one and don';t think I';d be alone either.

Spot on.
I did consider linking the device to your onboard GPS, but in a crash things tend to get disconnected.  I';m thinking of a fly-away scenario here, usually expensive multi';s with badly setup firmware, or faulty hardware, these coulkd fly for a long way before they hit the deck.
My hapless 250 is still there!  So that would not need long range or GPS, just UHF would be fine, I';m trying to think of a one solution for all, belt & braces solution.

Edit: Of course I have had rth triggered a couple of times, which has returned my quad safely, but I';m being fatalistic here, you can never rule out faulting hardware, a motor/esc cutting out over a wood, or cornfield, difficult to find, needle in a haystack.

[orfordness]

This was a long thread on here some time ago on the TK-102 GPS/GSM Trackers:-
http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?topic=5297.0

I have one on my Hex and it seems to work well and even has a waterproof bag.

If we could base the design on this and add RF functionality?
£15.98?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-TK102-RealTime-Mini-Magnetic-GPS-Tracker-Car-Vehicle-Hidden-Tracking-Device-/301169640359?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item461f1c03a7

Steve

[flybywire]

This was a long thread on here some time ago on the TK-102 GPS/GSM Trackers:-
http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?topic=5297.0

I have one on my Hex and it seems to work well and even has a waterproof bag.

If we could base the design on this and add RF functionality?
£15.98?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-TK102-RealTime-Mini-Magnetic-GPS-Tracker-Car-Vehicle-Hidden-Tracking-Device-/301169640359?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item461f1c03a7

Steve

Sounds like a plan!
I have seen those on other forums, in the past, but did read a few negative posts (as always I guess).

But maybe as you say, use it as a base, and add stuff as required, then seal it all up.

[orfordness]

Another hobby to look at is falconry, they loose birds and track them over dozens of miles sometimes, and the transmitters are super lightweight so the birds can carry them....

Tracking usually requires a yaggi aerial though....


Steve