Model licences A and B

[Hands0n]

See? It is stories like that which put people off.  I could not in any good faith advise a starter in 2014 to seek out a club for their multi-rotor.  Based on my own and others experiences it is just as likely to end up a spoiler for them.  But I do accept that in time this will change - although time is not on our side!

I actually quite relish the idea of having access to voluntary A and B assessment of skills.  I did something very similar with my motorcycling when I joined a local Institute of Advanced Motorcyclists group and not only trained for and passed my Advanced Motorcyclist test (great fun riding out and being assessed by a Class 1 licensed Traffic officer).  But I subsequently took up the training to become an Observer, then Senior Observer training not only other riders but also new Observers to the cause.  It was immense fun in the club.  I';d love for that experience with my multi-rotor kit and relatively new skills (in the hobby just over 18 months). 

But the key element is the F word, "Fun", capital F intentional.  Any club environment has to keep it entertaining, lively, interesting.  Not the cold dead hand of pseudo-officialdom.  And there';s no reason why that cannot be so. But the FDs who run these clubs have got to lighten up and broaden their horizons.

And I say that coming from a generation of FDs ::)

[flybywire]

Do you still have a copy of the letter? That might make for entertaining reading!

Let me check!

[flybywire]

Must have trashed it.  Basically I broke every single rule in their book I think..

[kilby]

Yes would have to agree, walking in with quad under your arm might be different only because it is new and most of the old boys in clubs dont like new    But this will change in time.

One of my clubs took a lot of persuading to see the benefits of electric and was the same case when guys started turning up with big petrol engines rather than glow many years back.

Have seen similar attitudes to Heli flyers (can hardly say those are the new kids on the block these days)

The problem is also that the ';old boys'; quite often haven';t a clue about the equipment they are using.

One club i visited (SE of England) still had a peg board system in use for those flying even though they where ALL using 2.4GHz and they where prohibiting anybody else from flying because all the frequencies where in use (6 aircraft up and all on spektrum & JR equipment).

I didn';t even bother mentioning that I had a quad in the hire car I just went back to the hotel

Unfortunately many clubs are also more interested in politics than flying.

[flybywire]

Did I mention that we have two clubs in our area?  I visited the'; other one'; a couple of years ago, took my heli along, altho I left my multi out of the car, (for fear of being accused of witchcraft). 

they were ';friendly'; enough, but couldn';t resist making snide comments about my Spektrum R/C gear.  Yeah, once is amusing, twice irksome, third time "shut the f*** up"

[Friskle]

The issue is mainly, that the A especially, was merely designed for personal achievement, eg, something to hang on your wall, a totally voluntary thing, now, clubs have basically made it mandatory, which imho is vastly unfair.

It merely means you have got it, it certainly does not mean your better than someone else, to fly solo, there absolutely no need for it, i can watch someone at our club, watch how he performs, how he handles him/herself, and quite clearly determine whether they are safe or not, imho, you dont need a test for it.

If you want the test, fine, i do, but do i think i should be forced to ? No, as it was never meant to be a mandatory thing, so why should it be used as such.

Imho, it has nothing to do with if your good enough to pass it, then whats the problem, the problem is, its supposed to be a voluntary thing, not compulsory, and most clubs have turned into the latter.

[teslahed]

Can i invite everyone to answer the very short poll I';ve added to this thread please?

I am interested to get opinions from as many active multirotor pilots as possible. And not just those with years of experience who';ve flown just about every sort of aircraft available - the opinions of total newbies and people that still remember what it was like to start out will be as important (or possibly more important) than more experienced pilots.

I wont say much more because i don';t want to bias the results before they are in.

Thanks guys!

[Hands0n]

Much like our current driving test really, can';t work out how some folk got theirs?

As an ADI(Car) I can answer that.  They train up, like everyone else, and take the test, driving to a standard acceptable to the DSA Examiner. 

Having passed their driving test they then take the advice of others to "... not bother driving like that after you';ve passed.".  And the rest is there for everyone to see. Incompetence sets in.

To answer another question I often hear - Yes, it is completely possible and even better to drive to at least Practical Test standard [or higher].  I do so every time I get in the car, whether tutoring or not. It is comfortable, relaxing and entirely stress-free to do so. 

I digress 

[Friskle]

Have seen similar attitudes to Heli flyers (can hardly say those are the new kids on the block these days)

The problem is also that the ';old boys'; quite often haven';t a clue about the equipment they are using.

One club i visited (SE of England) still had a peg board system in use for those flying even though they where ALL using 2.4GHz and they where prohibiting anybody else from flying because all the frequencies where in use (6 aircraft up and all on spektrum & JR equipment).

I didn';t even bother mentioning that I had a quad in the hire car I just went back to the hotel

Unfortunately many clubs are also more interested in politics than flying.

Dont forget though, some still use peg boards so you can glance to see how many is up at any one time,some clubs have a restriction on how many in the air at any one time, at ours, some may think its to little, but we allow only 4 in the air, partly due to the area, but personlly, i find 4 in the air at one time, more than enough.

[teslahed]

Having passed their driving test they then take the advice of others to "... not bother driving like that after you';ve passed.".  And the rest is there for everyone to see. Incompetence sets in.

To answer another question I often hear - Yes, it is completely possible and even better to drive to at least Practical Test standard [or higher].  I do so every time I get in the car, whether tutoring or not. It is comfortable, relaxing and entirely stress-free to do so.

lol - i got plenty of advise along those lines when i passed my test. Things like ';now you';ll really start learning how to drive!';

Fortunately for me i actually had quite a good instructor who didn';t only teach me to pass my test. He also taught me how to drive well.

I will admit i had more than the average number of lessons - i was learning for quite some time. I made slow progress for a while and then speeded up at the end.

But i passed first time with only 2 minor faults ::)

The main difference between my driving now and immediately after passing is that i am more relaxed and the whole process involves less brain ache - it';s closer to second nature for me. I still remember to check my mirrors and indicate though. I think of these things as being as much about protecting myself as protecting other road users. They make things safer for everyone and not just the occasional undertaking motorcyclist

And the perfectly reasonable motorcyclists on roundabouts etc as well...

That was about 3 months ago so it';s all still pretty fresh in my mind. Kind of funny that i taught myself to fly rc line of sight then FPV both to a fairly good level all without ever getting behind the wheel of a car. In many ways rc is technically harder but there are obviously a few important issues that make driving a much bigger responsibility.

[Hands0n]

Fortunately for me i actually had quite a good instructor who didn';t only teach me to pass my test. He also taught me how to drive well.

I love to read this stuff   A particular brickbat of mine is where ADIs teach to pass the test and leave the pupil with little more. I take time to create a driver, telling them that if they drive well enough ordinarily then passing the test is a complete given.  And that bears out. 

Congrats on passing with 2 minor faults. That is quite an achievement  

With flying model RC it would be great to have some instruction. I really enjoyed being "taken up" in my first ever fixed wing while in Corfu this year. Having an experienced pilot next to me, with dual controls, was really assuring and also made certain that I didn';t make a serious mistake. 

But I guess that multi-rotor is still too new and too much of a stretch for some clubs still. 

[teslahed]

I have put together a more thorough survey to try and gather some real data;

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WRRWX9S

thanks in advance to everyone that responds!

[Friskle]

The fixed wing A.cert is pointless also from a safety point of view also in reality.

Eg, it does not matter whether its taken on electric or IC, the only restriction is, it has to be taken on an aircraft that has a minimum weight of 1 kg.

Ok, so i pass my A Cert, on my 1.5kg electric wheeled plane, do all you need to do, which is not much, i pass it, i get my cert. 

Then later i turn up with an ic plane, which requires more safety awareness on the ground, but it does not matter than i never touched IC before, i have my A cert.

Imho, to much of the multi tests are related to fixed wings, they are not the same, tests should also be split, A test for general flight safety, then the B for more manual manouvreres, if you so wish.

I have nothing against being certified competent, but, it should be choice, and in most cases, its compulsory, due to club rules, that have taken something that is a voluntary achievement scheme, and turned it into a mandatory thing.

Of course, you dont like the rules, you could say, dont join, but, the way many places are going, there are less places to fly, at some point, the only way you will get some flying in, is being part of a club.

For another example, my dad has flown for over 50 years, they initially had get togethers, that later continued on into clubs, but, he now goes to join a club, they turn and say, sorry, to fly solo you will have to pass this, is a little condescending.

One of our members, very good flyer of helis, was sponsored in competition, he is taking the tests again, a and b, to become an examiner, then we will all have to take it to fly solo, my point there is, yes i want the cert, but considering we have all flown together for well over 5 years, is there really any need for it....

[G60jet]

So you can have gyros etc on choppers but must fly manual on multis.  Seems a tad unfair. Or and I wrong about gyros on the normal choppers

[pheasant_plucker]

So you can have gyros etc on choppers but must fly manual on multis.  Seems a tad unfair. Or and I wrong about gyros on the normal choppers

Totally different!
A gyro on a heli simply stabilizes the yaw. The controller on even the most basic flight system does that and much much more. Self leveling is a whole different ball game.

Gerry

[Gaza07]

Your using gyro';s on a multi rotor in manual mode you couldn';t begin to fly it with out the gyro';s same with the heli, self leveling or stable mode uses an accelerometer to auto level the aircraft making it much easier to fly 

So you can have gyros etc on choppers but must fly manual on multis.  Seems a tad unfair. Or and I wrong about gyros on the normal choppers

[teslahed]

Results of the survey are in. I will go over them tomorrow;

https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-LLRVPQP8/

[Oakie]

That was quick!


What do you plan on doing with the result?

Paul

[teslahed]

I have tried speaking with the guy who actually put the test together to convince him to consider allowing auto-level for the A test and not the B test.

I have suggested the A test should reflect the reality of multirotor flying for a lot of people and that means auto-level. Auto-level doesn';t mean auto-flight and you still have to know how to fly a quadcopter.

I would argue the test as it currently stands is too easy on the A test except for the fact you can';t use auto-level. This means helicopter pilots will pass the multirotor A test far too easily even though they might actually be less good at flying a quadcopter than someone who has much more experience with these new kinds of aircraft who flies using auto-level. I know a lot of good pilots who fly using auto-level who i think should be able to get passed a BMFA A test if not the B test.

I would like to add a few maneuvers to the A test to make it a harder and more comprehensive test but allow auto-level to be used. Then it would be a better test of multirotor flying skills rather than a test designed for helicopter pilots. I think multirotors are different to helicopters and have different capabilities. If i';m totally honest i think they are easier to fly and i don';t think it makes sense to make the A test artificially harder than it needs to be just to make up for this fact.

I would make people do nose in hovering, banked figures of eight and banked circles in both directions on the A test. But i would allow people to use an auto-levelling flight mode. I wouldn';t allow altitude hold or GPS modes as these can fail and be detrimental to safety and control. Whereas auto-level isn';t.

But i may be fighting an uphill battle on this one so don';t hold your breath!

[Marty McFly]

I would firstly like to thank you for taking the time and effort to try and get things changed,if you do you will have won a big battle with the BMFA.Personally speaking any one who can fly a helicopter should find the multi rotor very very easy.And in my opinion the test should show a level of expierence to show your capabilities.Also I see the big stumbvling block being if the BMFA allow self level on multi';s then they have to allow the self level that comes with certain ready to fly aircraft and also the bail out system for heli';s.
Once again Chris its great that you have taken up this challenge and all the best with it.

    Marty and the borrowed doggie, :scotland:

[nub]

the question i seem to asking myself is why would you want to fly a multi rotor at a BMFA club anyways?

your not allowed to use stabilization in the helicopter tests (from what i remember), so IMHO the tests should be done in manual.

[Marty McFly]

the question i seem to asking myself is why would you want to fly a multi rotor at a BMFA club anyways?

your not allowed to use stabilization in the helicopter tests (from what i remember), so IMHO the tests should be done in manual.

There lies the stumbling block,they would have to allow self level on all disciplines.

  Marty and the borrowed doggie, :scotland:

[flybywire]

But i may be fighting an uphill battle on this one so don';t hold your breath!

Why bother?

Save your breath for important stuff, like if the CAA ban fpv.

[Friskle]

No they wouldnt, because planes and helis were not designed and never did have stab systems as standard, people choose to fit them, multis were designed with stabilization.

[Hands0n]

I';d like to add my own voice of thanks to Chris for doing this on behalf of the entire multi-rotor community.

My own view of the test is that it should not be solely about flying - and thus the use of auto-level/stability is not exclusive. But the test should be a soup-to-nuts demonstration of a pilot';s approach to flying.  Everything from arriving at the field, safety checks, pre-flight checks, the flight itself, post-flight.  A holistic examination of what would be a typical flight session scenario.   It may be exactly like that ... I';ve no idea really

[Marty McFly]

No they wouldnt, because planes and helis were not designed and never did have stab systems as standard, people choose to fit them, multis were designed with stabilization.

I think you may find the original multi';s did not have self level.

     Marty and the borrowed doggie, :scotland:

[Oakie]

The 'A' certificate is a measure of flying ability and safety which 'may be equated to a safe
solo standard of flying' and an increasing number of clubs use it as their 'safe solo' test. As
an examiner, the level of competence you should expect of a candidate should be based on
that criterion; that is, is this person, in your opinion, fit to be allowed to fly unsupervised?

It is acceptable to use an electro-mechanical or solid state gyro/s in a multirotor being used
to take the test although electronic stabilisation is restricted to enabling flight, at no point
should the stabilisation effect take over control from the pilot or achieve automated or self
leveled flight. This allows a range of gyros to be fitted, from simple yaw dampers to solid
state heading lock units.
The use of any autopilot and/or artificial stability features which are (or may be) designed
into such units beyond definition above is not acceptable during the test and is not allowed.
Candidates should be prepared to explain the capabilities of the system they are using and
show that it does not take over control from the pilot and that automated flight will not be
achieved during the test.

The above is taken from http://www.bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=794&PortalId=0&TabId=220

Have I missed something?

it';s all covered here IMHO

I think to ask, as an entry level test to flying, the pilot to do all these maneuvers in unstablised is just maybe a bit purist?

After all it is a hobby.....

Paul

[tupoar]

Does that mean I can';t take the test with my Hubsan X4';s then??

[Hands0n]

Well, if we';re talking about being "purist" then surely the clubs should adopt the same approach as that for PFAW.  That is, the test (A or B) is tied to the specific aircraft being flown. 

Silly, yes. But that is what happens when people start "gold plating" what was intended as a simple test/requirement/law.   And us Brits seem to blimmin good at gold plating!

[Marty McFly]

The biggest problem is that the BMFA will take an awfull lot of talking to toget any thing changed,though im in favour of not being allowed to use self level,its not the be all and end all of things.Chris has to be commended for trying to get things altered.

My concern is the number of ready to fly multis that are being sold and then flown with out any prior expierence ofany form of modeling.

Most people that join the forum are responsible flyer';s.

Marty and the borrowed doggie, :scotland: