Model licences A and B

[teslahed]

If it was up to me (despite being a bit of a stunt flyer myself and a flight controller snob when it comes to DJI and auto-assisted modes if i';m totally honest) i would let people use basic auto-level without GPS assistance or heading lock in the A test and force them to fly full manual on the B test. At the moment with the exception of the loop which isn';t really that hard i don';t think there';s that much in the B test to make it harder than the A test - letting people use auto-level on the A test would change that. But that';s just my opinion and i guess the BMFA people have other ideas.

Auto-level may seem like cheating and in many ways it is but how many people pass their fixed wing A tests with aircraft with massive amounts of dihedral on the wing? Auto-level is kind of the electronic equivalent. Flying without auto-level is like flying a neutrally stable fixed wing aircraft in a lot of ways and i bet most people don';t do that when they pass their fixed wing A tests.

I';ve only been to 1 BMFA airshow and that was a few months ago now but i do remember a lot of people were flying very easy looking aircraft with 10 degrees or more of dihedral, no ailerons and big rudders and elevators for steering and control. That would bore the hell out of me but some of the older fliers seem to have barely moved on from what i would consider to be training aircraft and yet they were all flying these large heavy wooden petrol powered trainers about the place without any issues or apparent health and safety problems yet i couldn';t fly my tiny electric EPP flying wing because i didn';t have my A certificate

I think that passing the multirotor A test sounds a lot harder than passing a fixed wing A test given this fact although i will be interested to hear from anyone who';s done both - just as soon as anyone has actually sat the multirotor test that is.

I definitely wouldn';t let people use GPS assistance or the magnetometer based heading lock simple modes as you really want to show that you can handle orientation issues to prove you have the basic skills including nose in flight which i think both tests do a very good job at.

O well - at least it will encourage people to up their game and at the same time prove to the old guard flying helicopters and fixed wing aircraft the hard way without all the electronic doodads we';re used to that multirotor pilots have skills too!

It will also draw a line between those that have run out and bought themselves phantoms or equivalent who think they can fly because they';ve got the things in the air and know which buttons to press and those that have spent time  learning the proper way who can really fly. Anyone who';s racked up stick time with a hubsan X4 - i';m thinking of you! Even though you can';t actually turn auto-level off on those things...

[Jumpy07]

Must admit having read both of them.. I think these tests have grown out of the fixed wing versions..

The loop in B I find a bit strange..   not all FC';s will allow a loop..  also not allowing auto levelling is also odd.... atti I get.. and I think should be the base level skill..

That said I think its a great start, and good to see the BMFA embracing multis...   

Just wondering how many qualified assessors they have with MR experience.. or more to the point people who could train and develop MR pilots.

I think I am a reasonable pilot with a BNUC..   but I don';t fly in manual at all.. and have probably only done it once or twice.. most MR';s are a complete handful in manual..  and the tech has grown on the back of stabilised control..

Just my tuppence worth...

[teslahed]

It';s people like Jumpy07 (craig) i';m thinking of in terms of auto-level and the A certificate.

I';m sure you wouldn';t consider yourself a stunt flier or try to put on any kind of aerobatic display with any of your aircraft Craig, but i also know for a fact that you take safety seriously, run your own AP business without serious incident and fly a variety of serious multirotor aircraft at a professional level.

Not letting someone like you get the A certificate seems a bit restrictive to me as the technology to fly with auto-level is very well developed and actually makes these larger and more serious aircraft safer in the hands of a good well experienced pilot, not more dangerous.

Whereas relying on GPS at all times isn';t good for safety as the time that fails is the time you';ll need some manual skills to fall back on. But that';s manual skills using auto-stabilised mode with the gyros and accelerometers in the loop. If those fail you then full manual isn';t going to save you so from a safety perspective i just don';t see the need to make people fly on full manual. Even though it';s what i enjoy doing myself so you might expect me to be biased and in favour of that sort of thing - i';m not.

I really do think full manual mode is for stunt fliers and that';s what the B certificate should be aimed at. If the A certificate is to prove you are safe in the air then stabilised mode should be allowed.

The fact that some flight controllers wont allow you to loop isn';t a problem if the B certificate is aimed and stunt and display flying anyway. People with those flight controllers just wont be interested in that kind of thing.

[barneyg]

Doing a lazy 8 without autostab and without crabbing is really difficult for me ... at least I always crash when I try it ... Yaw, pitch, roll and throttle all at the same time ...

[Marty McFly]

This is a totally new ball game for the BMFA,and is directed at club/sport flyers,and is to deem them capable of normal flight and safe passage,at the moment I presume untill they have more talks with the CAA it will be down to Bnuc to police the A/P stuff,though I could be well wrong.
the other stumbling block is there has been no test for multi';s up until now so if you fly at a club that is BMFA register I would presume you will have to sit the test.

Marty and the borrowed doggie, :scotland:

p/s hope im not going off the beaten track

[kilby]

I suspect that the full manual is at least partially because many ';examiners'; wouldn';t know the difference between a bit of self levelling (as in dihedral) and everything except GPS being switched on.

[flybywire]

Sorry, utterly pointless! 

Nanny state again I';m afraid.

Let me elaborate:
I fly most in atti/gps atti mode, and haven';t had a crash or broken prop in over two years (caused by pilot error), yet I achieve my own goals, and have massive fun.  If I';m doing something wrong, please tell me what it is?

I';m learning more rate flying with my 250, ';cause I have to, but it';s not ';relaxing';!
In other words, our own ways are not always the ways of others.

Andy

P.S all modern fighter aircraft are controlled by computer, I';m not sure anybody could fly an F22 Raptor in ';manual'; mode?

Plus:  I love the technology in multi-rotors, it';s what beats all other vehicles hands down, and got me into the hobby, and keeps me in it!

There!

[Big A]

Sorry, utterly pointless! 

Nanny state again I';m afraid.

Let me elaborate:
I fly most in atti/gps atti mode, and haven';t had a crash or broken prop in over two years (caused by pilot error), yet I achieve my own goals, and have massive fun.  If I';m doing something wrong, please tell me what it is?

I';m learning more rate flying with my 250, ';cause I have to, but it';s not ';relaxing';!
In other words, our own ways are not always the ways of others.

Andy

P.S all modern fighter aircraft are controlled by computer, I';m not sure anybody could fly an F22 Raptor in ';manual'; mode?

How is it utterly pointless and nanny state? This has been requested by many clubs and many individuals, (I work in the BMFA office and there are daily phone calls and emails requesting this) so the Achievement Scheme Review Committee has responded and asked some very experienced multi fliers to look at the issue they formulated the tests based closely on the heliicopter tests, they have been tested by these people too, the results you can now see.

So not pointless as it';s something that members and clubs have been requesting numerous times.

Not Nanny state as they are not compulsory and have no bearing on insurance.

Of course the achievement scheme tests as a point of principle are about the skills and competency of the pilot and not about the skills of the electronics, hence the tests are to be taken in manual mode.

[flybywire]

This is one of them ';no win'; arguments, so in the words of Duncan Ballatyne: "I';m out"!

[Friskle]

How is it utterly pointless and nanny state? This has been requested by many clubs and many individuals, (I work in the BMFA office and there are daily phone calls and emails requesting this) so the Achievement Scheme Review Committee has responded and asked some very experienced multi fliers to look at the issue they formulated the tests based closely on the heliicopter tests, they have been tested by these people too, the results you can now see.

So not pointless as it';s something that members and clubs have been requesting numerous times.

Not Nanny state as they are not compulsory and have no bearing on insurance.

Of course the achievement scheme tests as a point of principle are about the skills and competency of the pilot and not about the skills of the electronics, hence the tests are to be taken in manual mode.

[teslahed]

I don';t agree this is any kind of ';nanny state'; issue. Firstly the state isn';t involved and secondly you don';t need an A or a B certificate unless you intend to fly at clubs around other people. Clubs are entitled to run their own rules and it makes sense to have some uniformity across the board rather than every little club having to come up with it';s own scheme to make sure people are safe to fly around others.

I don';t fly at clubs and am not looking to join one. Therefore i don';t need an A or B certificate at the moment. But i can see the reasons why something like this makes a lot of sense.

If you join a swimming club there';s a good chance they';ll want to see that you can swim X number of lengths of the pool before they let you loose in the sea - this is no different and makes just as much sense in my opinion.

Anyone that has learned to only fly with GPS mode enabled is going to run into problems next time there';s a solar storm, local jamming, or something else which affects GPS. Of which there are a lot of possibilities.

But flying with auto-level is different as that is part of the aircraft and can';t be affected by external variables in the same way. That';s why i think it makes sense to allow auto-level and not GPS flight modes when testing people';s basic flying ability for safety at the A level at least.

The analogy with modern fighter aircraft is a little flawed as well i think. Even when flying in full manual mode a quadcopter still has a computer in the loop with gyros affecting the way the motors respond just to keep it flying as it should. So full manual on a quadcopter probably is equivalent to the kind of aid a fighter pilot would get when flying an F22 raptor aerobatically. Computer in the loop but pilot making all the decisions.

So i really don';t think it';s pointless but i would agree there is room for improvement. But then it is their first attempt at this kind of thing so that';s to be expected.

[kilby]

At our club I often end up escorting visiting multirotor flyers / prospective club members as we haven';t a clue as to their ability level and the same for fixed wing pilots.

The difference is that if they turn up with their A or B we can have a chance of

1: Thy can actually fly and land their plane
2: Understand basic safety instruction, no fly zones etc
3: Fly in the presence of other flyers
4: Only require close supervision at the start of their visit (ie they actually earned their ';license'

So far we haven';t had any dangerous flyers with A or B awards.

However it';s not unusual for me to lose an hour or two from chaperoning visiting multirotor flyers (great to be social but I did join a club to fly)

[Friskle]

I wonnder though, how many people who fly these only fly in gps or atti modes, ie, that was the reason behind buying them, not because they had manual mode, sorry, but the test demanding to be done in manual mode is not fair to many that do not use it at all.

If people choose to sport stunt fly then thats choice, but many do not stunt fly, and the whole point initially, is thier stability, not aerobatics. So because some chose the aerobatic route, we are all now forced to fly like them ?

[teslahed]

I wonnder though, how many people who fly these only fly in gps or atti modes, ie, that was the reason behind buying them, not because they had manual mode, sorry, but the test demanding to be done in manual mode is not fair to many that do not use it at all.

That';s the one think i would like to see changed in the A test - people should be allowed to use auto-level at least.

Disallowing GPS and heading lock mode makes sense as GPS and magnetometers can fail for all sorts of different reasons.

Auto-level on the hand is as reliable as a fixed wing';s dihedral which produces a similar level of stability and should be allowed in any test that';s not aimed at stunt fliers in my opinion. Which the A test isn';t. The B test is different of course.

I would love to hear from the people who are responsible for the test on this particular issue.

[kilby]

I think the auto-level would not affect the quality of the A cert

I have to admit to spending about 60 to 70% of my time in Stabilise/Angle and the the rest of the time in acro, which I put down to being the only longboard rider I know in the late 70s and enjoying mellow situations

On a warm sunny day I can only take so much excitement so after disturbing myself with the mini H the 450 comes out and I relax (though that currently involves trying to do all the usual 450 low level stupidity but backwards and stability mode cuts down on the inevitable ground encounters)

[SeamusOD]

A & B certs should be looked at a way of improving your flying standard whether it be aeroplane, heli or multirotor, and not a regulation.
If you consider yourself to be a good flyer then you should have no problem passing a A or B test, and it gives a sense of achievement that you did it.

I have not seen any guys who have just passed their B test with a grumpy face most are smiling when handed the cert.

You should be able to fly your multirotor safely and controlled in acro mode, yes we know auto level etc are fundamentally part of how a MR flys, but flying it around in GPS mode in the case of say the Naza, does not require much skill.

Autolevel is not like a aeroplanes dihedral, in most cases you bank the plane and it will continue in that bank to the ground, unless it has a lot of dihedral like on a rudder only model.

[teslahed]

Autolevel is not like a aeroplanes dihedral, in most cases you bank the plane and it will continue in that bank to the ground, unless it has a lot of dihedral like on a rudder only model.

But lots of people do fly aircraft with lots of dihedral as in rudder only models and those same people are clearly able to pass their A certificates for fixed wing aircraft as demonstrated by the fact they fly them at BMFA airshows.

If the A test is a test of safety rather than a test of aerobatic ability then i maintain that self-levelling should be allowed. Otherwise it';s excessively elitist and will put the less aerobatically inclined fliers off even bothering to try.

I agree that flying a NAZA around in GPS mode doesn';t take much skill but there';s a big difference between that and doing a figure of eight using auto-stabilise mode on something like an APM flight controller.

[SeamusOD]

I am surprised some saying they dont want to join a club, I think if you were part of one you would see how much more enjoyable and better it is than flying on your own out the back garden, or local park.

I am a member of two and in both, guys always turn up every weekend, even on non flyable days just to sit in the clubhouse, chatting and drinking tea talking about flying RC. 
This is how we learn and build our knowledge, someone is always building something or has just bought a new ARTF that everyone is gathering around to look at.

If you dont like your local club whether it is due to the people, rules etc then start your own, the group/club/social environment is a fundamental part of the Hobby which makes it 100 times more enjoyable.
In 30+ years in this hobby I have found every club I have visited to be very welcoming.

[SeamusOD]

But lots of people do fly aircraft with lots of dihedral as in rudder only models and those same people are clearly able to pass their A certificates for fixed wing aircraft as demonstrated by the fact they fly them at BMFA airshows.

These type of aircraft are not very common, unless they are free flight models, 98% of model aircraft flown have ailerons and much less dihedral, foamy rc models commonly sold in toy shops etc might be like this but conventional model shop aircraft would not.

Would you not agree it takes more skill to fly without autolevel ?

[teslahed]

Would you not agree it takes more skill to fly without autolevel ?

Absolutely, it';s the only way i fly ::)

But if the A test is a test of safety designed to encourage people to be able to fly around others in a club environment rather than a test of skill then i really think basic auto-level (and nothing more) should be allowed. It may show a lack of pure manual flying skill but it doesn';t represent a lack of safety in the way that relying on GPS does.

The B test should be the real test of skill as i understand that';s aimed at display fliers and involves a loop amongst other maneuvers. That';s where in my opinion auto-level should be disallowed.

I expect there are a lot of people that will miss out on this lovely club atmosphere of which you speak if they have to first get themselves to the level where they can fly a multirotor without auto-level. Especially as some of the larger models just don';t make sense to fly without it at the best of times.

I have little doubt i could pass both the A and B test right now but i think the point of the A test should be to encourage new fliers to get to a safe level of ability, not to force them all to fly the way people like I do;

http://youtu.be/88Mist2NGto

[guest325]

To take a BMFA fixed wing A test your model needs to meet a standard, 1kg minimum needs to take off from the ground and land safely on the ground. Trainers these days have ailerons, not much dihedral and a very good flight envelope, mine was good enough to be able to cope with B test manoeuvres (with higher throws) I don';t know of anyone who has attempted to take an A with an Old timer style model.

[teslahed]

That';s interesting i didn';t know any of that Darrell.

It surprises me that you have to have an aircraft of at least 1kg to pass the BMFA fixed wing A test. I don';t think any of my fixed wing aircraft got much beyond half that and i';ve been flying those for years now to a  pretty high level. I also only own 1 with a set of working landing gear and that currently needs new servos and radio gear installing after sitting in the garage for the last couple of years. I guess i wouldn';t get passed my A test on any of my fixed wing aircraft despite my skill level and experience.

It seems funny that they';ve almost gone in the other direction with multirotors though - Larger and heavier multirotors are more likely to be flown with auto-level enabled at all times and i think it';s safer to fly them like this. I don';t think there are many pilots flying multirotor aircraft at the larger end of the scale on full manual. It';s almost as if the BMFA tests for multirotors are aimed at people like me flying mini quads more than the more serious and professional multirotor pilot flying something that';s 2 or 3 kg in total flying weight or more. Smaller and lighter multirotors will get passed the BMFA test much more easily than heavier more serious ones.

Whereas it would appear that the fixed wing BMFA test requires you to be operating at the heavier end of the spectrum (at least as far as i';m concerned). I';ve never flown any fixed wing much beyond half a kilogram and consider it safer this way. Larger and heavier fixed wing aircraft will get passed the BMFA test much more easily than lighter safer ones.

[kilby]

I am surprised some saying they dont want to join a club, I think if you were part of one you would see how much more enjoyable and better it is than flying on your own out the back garden, or local park.

I';m a club member and it is a welcoming club, however there those clubs which are less than welcoming to anything other than winged models.

Happily (in NI) I have only experienced the clichéd attitude (if theres no balsa and it';s not 2 stroke then go away) once up at Nutts Corner a few years ago when I first read about electric flight and went to up there to ask (and they disliked 2.4GHz at the time too).

I was in England earlier this year on a course and looked up a couple of clubs and went to  visit one and the incredibly poor attitude I received from the members because I even mentioned quads was disgraceful, I felt like Bob Dylan at Newport when he went electric.

Unfortunately quite a few folks here have suffered similar (or worse) receptions, which has poisoned them against organised clubs, the BMFA magazine gives a few whiffs of wishing they where back in the 70s

It';s unfortunate as there';s some much more to be gained than somewhere to fly (many days there is little flying but a lot of entertainment)

[Hands0n]

If you dont like your local club whether it is due to the people, rules etc then start your own, the group/club/social environment is a fundamental part of the Hobby which makes it 100 times more enjoyable.
In 30+ years in this hobby I have found every club I have visited to be very welcoming.

But have you found that welcome with only a multi-rotor to hand?  In 30 years time (I';ll be 90 BTW) I would like to think that I would have several other aircraft under my belt.  But at this stage in my evolution I am 100% multi-rotor and with a yearning to get that Bixler2 in the air having now flown a wing for the first time ever.  But I had to go all the way to Corfu to receive an astonishing open arms welcome.  Here in the UK the [very short] experience has been along the lines of "We don';t use those things here" like I had some kind of social disease.  So, solo it is then ::)

Start your own club?  Great idea in principle, but again, a freshman to the hobby has quite enough to contend with and will have little bandwidth to go through the reality of establishing a club, with suitable resources such as building, field, insurances etc.  That is a big undertaking.

I';m sure that "stuff" will happen to engender multi-rotor clubs, or acceptance at the fuddy-duddy level.  But we';re not quite there yet. 

[nbpicklesno2]

I felt like Bob Dylan at Newport when he went electric.

JUDAS

[SeamusOD]

Yes would have to agree, walking in with quad under your arm might be different only because it is new and most of the old boys in clubs dont like new    But this will change in time.

One of my clubs took a lot of persuading to see the benefits of electric and was the same case when guys started turning up with big petrol engines rather than glow many years back.

There is no doubt Quads are very strange to seasoned modellers, it took me a while to look into them myself, but when one guy at the club starts flying them the interest then builds.

If you go into a club with a quad and fly it well and safely it will always be looked at differently from some guy who ends up crashing it.

[flybywire]

Talking of clubs, I joined one a while back (then left) the welcome was very friendly, (who';d want to join one where it wasn';t).  A couple of members including a chap on the committee  flew multi-rotors themselves, they really talked a good talk.  Problem was, the rules, which had been built up over the years seemed to be crippling to me, so much so that they chose to publish all my ';misdemeanours'; in a news e letter!

Oh, and fpv is mega boring over the same ground, over and over again!

Clubs, shove-em!

Edit: Forums yes!!

[barneyg]

... so much so that they chose to publish all my ';misdemeanours'; in a news e letter!

Doesn';t seem like a friendly welcome to me 

[flybywire]

Doesn';t seem like a friendly welcome to me 

';
As I say, very friendly (most that is!) to my face, but then turned round and did ';the deed';!

[teslahed]

Do you still have a copy of the letter? That might make for entertaining reading!