Model licences A and B

[Oakie]

Was that howard hughs in the film?

Paul

[Hands0n]

Paul, I think that the document actually contradicts itself in places - recalling that Chris said that a few pages back in this thread.  Which seems a bit silly to me, if you';re preparing such a document it needs to be clear and entirely unambiguous.  And it doesn';t need complex use of English to make it so.

I';m confused now also ... 

[Oakie]

Thanks Danny I was beginning to think I was going insane again!

I will ask at the club meet over the week end for my own clarification and post any news that may help.

Makes me think I may fail my RT exam as I don';t understand English anymore!


Paul

[teslahed]

I would agree that the document appears to contradict itself and isn';t as clear as it could be.

But the guy who wrote the actual tests is of the opinion that auto-level is auto-pilot and thus takes control away from the pilot so shouldn';t be allowed. I couldn';t disagree more.

[tupoar]

I believe if you read the paragraph before the one mentioned, it tells you you cant use auto level etc.

Any other form of stabilization that is not mentioned in the paragraph above is also not allowed. This, I guess, is to cover themselves for any smart bums out there who come up with something new.

That';s how I read it anyway...

[Friskle]

Yet they allow you to take your heli A cert on a FBL heli, which still practically stabelizes the heli with constant corrections to the swashplate, that in effect takes some work away from the pilot, after flying both FBL is by far easier to maintain a hover with less input from the pilot to do so.

Hands off a flybarred heli results in the heli tipping away, hands off on an FBL heli does not give the same result, it stays in a drifting hover, pretty much the same as what atti mode produces.

[nub]

but it doesn';t work to keep the disc level? it';ll try keep it in the last position it was put in and the disc does not return to level when you release the sticks.

so in a way its more like manual mode that auto level.

i wouldn';t be able to sit my heli test with auto level set like on a co-pilot system.

there';s quite a difference in way both systems work and fly.

[Friskle]

Not at all, if the heli tilts, the controller compensates, to move the swash accordingly in the opposite direction, which is why it can continue a hands off hover, if a flybarred heli tilts , it stays tilted, so again, it may not be a full auto level controller, but its doing a similar thing.

If you hover and use right aileron to sway sideways, then let go, it settles to a hover, but will keep drifting.

If you define auto level, as something making adjustments to maintain a level orientation, then a FBL controller falls into that also, if you manually tilt a FBL heli, its swash moves opposite to counter it, if no input from the sticks.

[Oakie]

 

This has turned into a battle of terminology, I think. I will hopefully have an answer by Sunday night, unless the BMFA pop up to put us right. I do hope the chap that posted from the office has not got a hot cuff from above.....

Paul.

[nub]

trying to think back to last time i flew a heli

they are similar but don';t really do the same thing hehe

having flown both i can honestly say there is a difference, the guy i build the heli for with the co-pilot system would tell you the same thing, he could kind of hover his in auto level, but not a chance of flying mine with a FBL system, i doubt he would have even got it off the ground.

then he bought an APS system still never took to it and now selling up ffs, its been a shelf queen for the past 2 years it must be.

so if anybody';s interested in a trex 500 ESP with 3gx and aps with a dx8 in mint condition geez a shout

[Marty McFly]

With a FBL system on a heli if you bank the heli over untill its say 30% it will stay at that until you correct it.under no circumstances will it level it automaticlly,unless youve got A FBL unit with a bail out fitted.

Marty and the borrowed doggie. :scotland:

[Friskle]

I dont think i said it will auto level out of a 30% bank, i said in the hover it is continually making small inputs, effectively which makes an FBL heli more stable than a standard flybarred one, because a lot of the smaller inputs are done for you, so its still assistance, no matter how you look at it.

Dont forget either, that 30% is the borderline, any angle below that figure , the unit will try and stabilize the heli, anything over 30% becomes its flightpath.

I didnt say it was an auto level device, but its function is still similar, in that it aids stability, whichever way you look at it.

[Marty McFly]

You could say the same about A flybar then that aids stability.

Marty and the borrowed doggie, :scotland:

[nub]

aye nae tail gyro';s allowed either!

[tectic]

Seems to me that as a hobby the BMFA should be promoting more members into the hobby.
Whilst there are some clubs who accept multirotors most think electric planes never mind multirotors are not in the spirit of a real model.
I believe that as long a a flier can fly to a safe attitude and observe an awareness of the clubs safety policy';s whilst controlling their multirotor then this should be sufficient to allow the to fly solo be it on manual or Full GPS-atti mode.

With such a distancing from multirotor fliers will there even be any proficient fliers to assess students of multirotors.
And how many people will there be to buddy fly whilst you are not allowed to participate in your own hobby!

This will only further distance multirotor fliers from clubs and we will remain basically an underground Hobby group popping up in small numbers to banter and have a fly together.

Which I must say Is the way I prefer
To fly on my own whenever I can find a good site and get together with some like minded people to have fun.

Waiting all day in line after the helis to get your designated 15 mins flying time listening to the views of IC engine flyers  about how electric is not really a proper hobby.

Just my 2 cents worth!!

[flybywire]

I don';t quite agree with the flybarless/flybar descriptions, well not in my experience at any rate.  Flybarless controllers imitate the flybar by using electronic stabilisation as opposed to gyroscopic forces.  I will say that the Trex DFC controller I used made the heli very ';squirely';, more precise in it';s movements.  If you take your hands off of my Gaui flybarred heli, it will crash!

[Oakie]

I have spoken with the agent at my club and clarification of the new rotor A test.


Paul

[Big A]

Whilst there are some clubs who accept multirotors most think electric planes never mind multirotors are not in the spirit of a real model.

I';m sorry that is just plain wrong, and it';s comments like that that are more likely to put people off joining clubs than anything else, individuals could read that comment and take it as correct. Almost all clubs are perfectly happy with multi-rotors and also electric powered models.

There will always be some fixed wing clubs that won';t allow helis and multi-rotors but then there are heli clubs that don';t allow fixed wing and there also some multi clubs now that don';t allow fixed wing.

Clubs are ringing me on a daily basis in the BMFA office asking for advice on integrating multis, I simply advise them to get on with it as they are a valid part of the model aircraft flying family. Something I also advised in the last BMFA issue in "Club Corner"

So I would say as the person who deals with more clubs on a regular basis in the UK than anyone else, that the vast majority of clubs are very welcoming of multis, fpv and electric models so get along to a few and check them out.

[Friskle]

I';m sorry that is just plain wrong, and it';s comments like that that are more likely to put people off joining clubs than anything else, individuals could read that comment and take it as correct. Almost all clubs are perfectly happy with multi-rotors and also electric powered models.

There will always be some fixed wing clubs that won';t allow helis and multi-rotors but then there are heli clubs that don';t allow fixed wing and there also some multi clubs now that don';t allow fixed wing.

Clubs are ringing me on a daily basis in the BMFA office asking for advice on integrating multis, I simply advise them to get on with it as they are a valid part of the model aircraft flying family. Something I also advised in the last BMFA issue in "Club Corner"

So I would say as the person who deals with more clubs on a regular basis in the UK than anyone else, that the vast majority of clubs are very welcoming of multis, fpv and electric models so get along to a few and check them out.

Sorry, but that comment is just plain wrong, as i have had it said to me in more ways than one, that because i fly electric foam planes mostly, i am not serious about the hobby, they may accept you in the club, but there are most definitely people out there that think electric is blasphemy, and if its not got an engine on the front or you aint built it from scratch, your not good enough.

you would rarely get them coming over chatting to you about your new foam plane, but  turn up with an IC, straight over asking what engine etc and with a subtle sarcastic "ah you got yourself a proper one now "so yes, it does happen.

new possible members, are nearly always advised to get an IC trainer before electric.


we will accept any in ours, we have made new arrangements to include them, being happy to accept them is one thing,  but as for peoples personal opinions, thats a different matter completely.

[Big A]

Sorry, but that comment is just plain wrong, as i have had it said to me, that because i fly electric foam planes mostly, i am not serious about the hobby, they may accept you in the club, but there are most definitely people out there that think electric is blasphemy, and if its not got an engine on the front or you aint built it from scratch, your not good enough.

we will accept any in ours, we have made new arrangements to include them, but as for peoples personal opinions, thats a different matter completely.

the comment I quoted said MOST clubs,  yes there will be individuals that do not consider multis and electric foam is as real aeromodelling they are of course entitled to their somewhat misguided view. However to suggest that that is the view of most clubs is just wrong.

[teslahed]

The new division at club level will be that if you can';t fly on manual mode (gyros only) without self-levelling then you are not a proper multirotor flier and shouldn';t be trusted to fly solo and unsupervised.

That only applies to clubs that use the BMFA multirotor A test as a test of;

The 'A' certificate is a measure of flying ability and safety which 'may be equated to a safe solo standard of flying' and an increasing number of clubs use it as their 'safe solo' test. As an examiner, the level of competence you should expect of a candidate should be based on that criterion; that is, is this person, in your opinion, fit to be allowed to fly unsupervised?

So lets hope that most clubs ignore this and do their own thing. A bit of a missed opportunity there though

[Big A]

new possible members, are nearly always advised to get an IC trainer before electric.

depending on circumstances that advice may be correct of course.

I have instructed many fixed wing fliers over the years and also setup training program';s in three clubs that I was a member of. In almost every case those with the "Traditional i/c powered aileron trainer reached "A" standard quicker than those flying electric powered models no matter what the construction. The important aspect is stick time and invariably ic fliers got more of it for no other reason than they were always ready to fly and on training evenings got more flights than electric fliers who were often waiting for packs to charge. So if I am asked what the best power source is for learning in a club setting with a structured  training program I will still advise, based on experience, I/c. Either that or have at least half a dozen charged up flight packs on arrival at the field.

If someone is going it alone outside of a club the advice of course would differ.

[kilby]

I';m a quite enthusiastic club member and our club is electric only (the hint is in the name and also the landowner says no to IC) but we are multi, heli or fixed wing.

However I have visited clubs where they don';t understand their equipment (running pegboards for 2.4GHz radios and claiming there are no free channels left) yet claiming that multi rotors aren';t welcome because they';re not safe.

In all honesty I do believe that the BMFA could do more to keep their members educated though I do understand that there are those who don';t really wish to keep their knowledge up to date.

The quarterly magazine gives the feeling that everybody wants to go back to the 70s or earlier. While it is interesting there is little sign of anything to do with flight controllers, esc advice aerial photography (not even including fpv) that';s without including multirotors. If more modern submissions are not turning up then perhaps a New Tech page should be established for all types of model flying.

It';s up to all model flyers to make sure none of us are viewed as something to be suspicious of. Clubs and open days are a great way of doing that and passing knowledge on to others.

Like others I think that the A qualification should allow self level, but have additional ';nose in'; requirements

[Big A]

The new division at club level will be that if you can';t fly on manual mode (gyros only) without self-levelling then you are not a proper multirotor flier and shouldn';t be trusted to fly solo and unsupervised.

That only applies to clubs that use the BMFA multirotor A test as a test of;

So lets hope that most clubs ignore this and do their own thing. A bit of a missed opportunity there though

simply a matter of opinion, of course you are permitted your own opinion, just as others are permitted theirs. One of the guiding principles of the Achievement scheme is that it is the pilot being tested. It is not permitted for electronics to take over control of the model beyond enabling flight in any of the tests. My opinion, and that of many others, is that it should remain that way. Others of course are permitted and indeed hold differing opinions.

[teslahed]

What';s the largest multirotor you';ve ever flown and did you fly it on full manual?

[Big A]

I';m a quite enthusiastic club member and our club is electric only (the hint is in the name and also the landowner says no to IC) but we are multi, heli or fixed wing.

it is interesting that if a club said I/c only, for whatever reason, they would be castigated as dinosaurs, Vive le difference I say.

However I have visited clubs where they don';t understand their equipment (running pegboards for 2.4GHz radios and claiming there are no free channels left) yet claiming that multi rotors aren';t welcome because they';re not safe.

In all honesty I do believe that the BMFA could do more to keep their members educated though I do understand that there are those who don';t really wish to keep their knowledge up to date.

members are certainly given all the info in the handbook, on the website and the BMFA news, of course it';s up to the member to read and digest it.

The quarterly magazine gives the feeling that everybody wants to go back to the 70s or earlier. While it is interesting there is little sign of anything to do with flight controllers, esc advice aerial photography (not even including fpv) that';s without including multirotors. If more modern submissions are not turning up then perhaps a New Tech page should be established for all types of model flying.

there have been regular articles on fpv and multi-rotors running for at least the past year. Alongside articles on free flight, control line and other disciplines, which still have very many active participants and should also be covered, all the time remembering that the BMFA news is an association news letter. I do sometimes feel many don';t take the time to see what';s inside and miss these articles because of that.

It';s up to all model flyers to make sure none of us are viewed as something to be suspicious of. Clubs and open days are a great way of doing that and passing knowledge on to others.

hear hear!!

[teslahed]

simply a matter of opinion, of course you are permitted your own opinion, just as others are permitted theirs. One of the guiding principles of the Achievement scheme is that it is the pilot being tested. It is not permitted for electronics to take over control of the model beyond enabling flight in any of the tests. My opinion, and that of many others, is that it should remain that way. Others of course are permitted and indeed hold differing opinions.

It isn';t a matter of opinion that the test creates a division in clubs that use the A certificate as a test of safe and solo flying ability. That';s just a fact. It';s a matter of opinion (arguably) as to whether or not auto-level removes control from the pilot.

I would love to hear you describe a situation in which a pilot using auto-level has less control than one on gyros only. I can think of plenty of such situations using altitude hold or GPS mode but not one in auto-level mode. Unless you count a loop the loop which isn';t in the A test and doesn';t even require you to go inverted in the B test anyway.

[Hands0n]

None of this conversation is endearing me towards BMFA clulbs I';m sorry to say. 

My own experience of a local club "Oh no, we do not allow those things here" (when enquiring about multi-rotor when I first started) has convinced me that the established clubs - at least in this area - are not worth bothering with.

Oh well ...

[Big A]

What';s the largest multirotor you';ve ever flown and did you fly it on full manual?

im not sure what that has to do with anything, if a multi-rotor is banked or nose up or down and the electronics corrects it and not the pilot it is my opinion that the electronics is doing more than enabling flight and is taking over control.

But to answer your question the largest I have flown was 450 sized and no I didn';t fly it in full manual, self levelling was set and it was very easy to fly and in my opinion there would be no great "achievement" in passing the A cert with self levelling active. Far too easy.

[Big A]

I would love to hear you describe a situation in which a pilot using auto-level has less control than one on gyros only. I can think of plenty of such situations using altitude hold or GPS mode but not one in auto-level mode. Unless you count a loop the loop which isn';t in the A test and doesn';t even require you to go inverted in the B test anyway.

but what has that got to do with anything, especially pilot achievement?