Next step up system...

[Richlizard]

Hi all.

Following on from my near ';flyaway that was actually pilot error'; thread, I am thinking perhaps the Phantom is not the unit for me when the wind gets above perhaps 10mph forecast. It is right on its weight limit which probably doesn';t help.

I know many people with their own business will have the S800 EVO which I have become very interested in myself, but losing one of those would have me hanging from the nearest bridge!

So I am thinking that maybe I should look for a go-between. I looked once before in some detail at the F550 until a Facebook friend had his whack into a roof for what appeared at the time to be a flyaway (it wasn';t). But I also remember that the F550 can still only carry a Gopro and the time it has in the air is not that much greater.

I suppose I should list the things I am looking for. I currently have DJI Phantom, Aeroxcraft gimbal, ImmersionRC Tx, Gopro camera (and soon a tracking device  ) weighing me down.

1. More stability in flight, especially windy conditions.
2. Able to carry a heavier load.
3. A better camera with perhaps a preset zoom facility to enable filming from a greater distance.
4. Spend longer in the air.

I guess they are standard want want wants.

So I was wondering what systems are the next step before going right up to the 10k mark.

I have looked at those on Ebay from Ireland but really have no idea between the £6.5k ones here and the £3.5k ones here

As for cameras, the best I used before my Gopro was on my iPhone!

All advice appreciated. Be as flippant as you wish. 

[Opto-Mystic]

I have looked at those on Ebay from Ireland but really have no idea between the £6.5k ones here and the £3.5k ones here

Links corrected as per:

I have looked at those on Ebay from Ireland but really have no idea between the £6.5k ones http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171161909937

and the £3.5k ones http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171161909476

They now work 

[Biffa]

All advice appreciated. Be as flippant as you wish. 

Learn to fly the Phantom first mate

[Jumpy07]

Rich, have a look at the RCT 800 for a cheap work frame..  cheap to repair and wont make you cry if you loose it. http://www.rctimer.com/product_809.html  the 550 is a bit small for a decent gimbal..  the 800 with the right motors etc will easily cope with a Sony Nex, but would also make a good GoPro platform.


I am not a lover of the S800 frames..  maybe the Evo is much better .. the old ones used to have lots of issues.. but this is another price bracket anyway from a 550/800


TBH most people doing aerial work will be using big expensive frames...  sometimes you need them for credibility with clients.. but also to lift heavy payloads.. depends on what work you intend doing. Droidworx and Carbon Core are the other fav heavy lift AP frames.. . Many people do just fine with a GoPro & Zenmuse on a small frame for general imaging work.


I have a Phantom.. and they are crap in the wind.. also by the time you add all the bits and upgrade them for AP work.. you would have been as well building something bigger.. flight times are also poor..


Coaxial frames such as X8 and Y6 are becoming popular as they are very good in the wind and are easier to transport.. downside is they are around 15% less effecient


On a plus side you can take the Naza out of your Phantom and use it on a  bigger frame..   


If you want to have a chat though some options.. more than happy to give you a call .. just pm me

[Opto-Mystic]

I cannot advise on your next step. I don';t have enough experience with this type of kit. However, I am into photography (Ex professional (retired) aviation photographer).  Please take the following as food for thought

You have to consider what type of camera and its weight. The category of ';DSLR'; does not define the actual class of camera only the type of camera. There is a huge spread of weights and sizes. I see that the Canon 5D Mkll (5D2) is mentioned on one of the machines you are looking at.  That is a full blown pro camera BODY. That does not include the lens. Again a huge variety of lenses available at vastly different weight. Fore example, my Canon 5D2 body alone weighs 1lb 16oz. A Sigma 50mm prime lens weighs in at 13.5 oz (My standard walk-about lens, a Canon 28~300mm ';L'; class lens weighs a massive 4lb 6.5oz! I am not suggesting that being slung under a drone! ) On the other hand, My Canon 20D with a stock 18~55mm lens weighs 2Lb3oz

I suggest that as a beginner with a DSLR type of camera that you start of with the entry ';Prosumer'; type  with a stock lens - It will be lighter, easier to handle and a lot less expensive. You would need to decide if you want still or video or both before you select the camera to buy. Whatever, the camera will be used not just for fixing to a quad but also as a cracking general purpose camera for general photography. Once you get into DSLR more deeply, and you feel the need of upgrading to an expensive pro camera, then that would be the lime to look at spending £2k5+ on a Camera body like the 5DMkIII (not a typo, the Mk3 is available) You can then spend £1K upwards for a decent lens. The eventual choice will very much depend on the budget that you have available (eg: My 5Dll+the28@300mm was over £5k5! add that sort of price to a drone...

If you go for a good DSLR, then there are really only two brands to seriously consider: Canon & Nikon. 99.9% of pro photographers, especially those in aviation field will have one or the other.

[Jumpy07]

I cannot advise on your next step. I don';t have enough experience with this type of kit. However, I am into photography (Ex professional (retired) aviation photographer).  Please take the following as food for thought

You have to consider what type of camera and its weight. The category of ';DSLR'; does not define the actual class of camera only the type of camera. There is a huge spread of weights and sizes. I see that the Canon 5D Mkll (5D2) is mentioned on one of the machines you are looking at.  That is a full blown pro camera BODY. That does not include the lens. Again a huge variety of lenses available at vastly different weight. Fore example, my Canon 5D2 body alone weighs 1lb 16oz. A Sigma 50mm prime lens weighs in at 13.5 oz (My standard walk-about lens, a Canon 28~300mm ';L'; class lens weighs a massive 4lb 6.5oz! I am not suggesting that being slung under a drone! ) On the other hand, My Canon 20D with a stock 18~55mm lens weighs 2Lb3oz

I suggest that as a beginner with a DSLR type of camera that you start of with the entry ';Prosumer'; type  with a stock lens - It will be lighter, easier to handle and a lot less expensive. You would need to decide if you want still or video or both before you select the camera to buy. Whatever, the camera will be used not just for fixing to a quad but also as a cracking general purpose camera for general photography. Once you get into DSLR more deeply, and you feel the need of upgrading to an expensive pro camera, then that would be the lime to look at spending £2k5+ on a Camera body like the 5DMkIII (not a typo, the Mk3 is available) You can then spend £1K upwards for a decent lens. The eventual choice will very much depend on the budget that you have available (eg: My 5Dll+the28@300mm was over £5k5! add that sort of price to a drone...

If you go for a good DSLR, then there are really only two brands to seriously consider: Canon & Nikon. 99.9% of pro photographers, especially those in aviation field will have one or the other.

Sony Nex and GH3 are the mid level cameras for AP work... 5D Mk2 and Mk3 next step up.. some people also using Pocket Black Magic now .. GH3 is very popular..

Most off the shelf gimbals are balanced for smaller prime lenses, 16mm-24mm.. big lenses are a pain to balance.. also more you zoom.. more chance you will have vibration issues with footage.. weight is a big factor as you point out.

Dji Zenmuse have gimbals for GoPro 3, Sony Nex 5,6,7, Canon 5D, GH2 and GH3.  .. so this is what you see most off..   

Frames with gimbals to lift red epics and the like cost a lot of money 8k+

[Richlizard]

Thanks for the very informed responses guys.

And thanks for fixing the links. Amazing how often I try to look clever and end up looking quite the opposite! 

Jumpy (Craig from ground school?), that frame looks about perfect for my size of multi. And cheap is good right now. The only problem is that the most technical thing I did to the phantom was bolt on the gimbal! lol. Is there somebody out there that builds these things. Perhaps Stef is looking for a little project to practice on?

But seriously, I wouldn';t know where to start. Perhaps I should longterm and maybe I ought to build one of these to know exactly what is going on under my hood. The phantom switches on... it flies... and sometimes it comes home!

I tried searching the site to see if there is a detailed description of every individual part needed for a multi, but struggled to put it together. Is there a link to any of this? A build from start to finish?

I think it best if I keep the phantom going for backup and/or use while this is being built if I were to go down this route. The more I type, the more I think perhaps the best thing to do is build myself, so ignore the waffle earlier.

Ok, so I have a £50 frame... next! 

I agree with the credibility thing, although anything really is a step up from my ';toy'; phantom. And yes, I get around 6:30s before it drops. Not the best.
It seems most EVO people are using Zenmuse and GH3 camera with 12mm lens. Mike who is a member here MKHeung? almost talked me into the EVO and he says he can use 2x or 4x zoom. He picks his EVO up Friday so looking forward to his tests. So would a frame like this be able to carry a gimbal/camera like this? I really am baffled as to why the costs vary so much.

Thanks Opto for all the details of cameras. As I mentioned, my iPhone was my best ever camera and I really haven';t got to grips with the Gopro. But I need to get further from the action to film if I can and if that means a little zoom, then that is cool. Being able to take it off the unit and use as a conventional camera would also be a bonus.

I suppose the first thing then is to get ordering parts and on with the build, but of course I don';t want to build a shed if it can';t fit my mower so need to make sure I go down the right path.

Oh and I have a Futaba T8J, so presumably I should be able to use that on either machine?

Thanks again for any advice on its way! 

[Opto-Mystic]

[]

[]

Thanks Opto for all the details of cameras. As I mentioned, my iPhone was my best ever camera and I really haven';t got to grips with the Gopro. But I need to get further from the action to film if I can and if that means a little zoom, then that is cool. Being able to take it off the unit and use as a conventional camera would also be a bonus.

[]
Oh and I have a Futaba T8J, so presumably I should be able to use that on either machine?

Thanks again for any advice on its way! 

A lot of DSLR cameras shoot decent HD Video (the vid of my first flight was made with a Canon 5D2) - If you go the DSLR route make sure it will do video. That said, I don';t know of any DSLR lens that has a remote operated lens - A dedicated video camera is probably the way to go on that point...

At an educated guess, your Futaba T8J will be OK, however you need the more experienced members to confirm that.

[Richlizard]

Hi Opto.

Perhaps I should be clearer regarding my naivety. When you say best to go DSLR route... there are option? 

As for the zoom, it is set before take-off. 

I am actually really quite impresses with the stuff I have got from the Gopro, but I am assuming better cameras will go even better in areas I don';t know existed?

I mean, is this quality really that bad? From a little 3 inch weightless piece of plastic lol...

Rooksbury on Vimeo

[Richlizard]

Damn, I am hijacking my own thread.

Let me start again. I wanna build a hexa...

[Cloudbuster]

Hi rich ....... Two things !!! What do you want to do with it ??? And whats ur budget ??? The options are limitless but it very much depends on what you are doing with your aerial photography. The dji is ok in small areas and easy to control but is useless in anything above 7mph winds and also very poor flight times and payload capabilities. It sound to me you really need a custom build platform that i am afraid will not come cheap ... Even my budget budget camera platforms wil see you no change out of £1000 and for a reliable heavy lift platform with ground station you are looking at £3000 plus . Let me know what your trying to achieve and i will do my best to help and point you in the right direction !!!

Regards rob

[Richlizard]

Hi rich ....... Two things !!! What do you want to do with it ??? And whats ur budget ??? The options are limitless but it very much depends on what you are doing with your aerial photography. The dji is ok in small areas and easy to control but is useless in anything above 7mph winds and also very poor flight times and payload capabilities. It sound to me you really need a custom build platform that i am afraid will not come cheap ... Even my budget budget camera platforms wil see you no change out of £1000 and for a reliable heavy lift platform with ground station you are looking at £3000 plus . Let me know what your trying to achieve and i will do my best to help and point you in the right direction !!!

Regards rob

Thanks Rob.

Well I am definitely trying to go full steam with setting up my business taking aerial photography and video.

First of all, I think the phantom looks pretty poor when presented to a client.
As you mention, I am looking for more stability, especially in high winds.
I am also looking to stay longer in the air... again, especially in high winds.
Although I am incredibly impressed with the Gopro, I do think at times I could do with being a little further from the action with a set zoom in place.
I will be keeping the phantom as backup as images are superb no matter what the wind. So I am not interested in zipping round showing friends how fast I can go. Steady is important as although I have got quite used to using software for stabilisation, it would be great to not have to.

Now when talking about this kind of things with online friends or colleagues, it almost always ends up with DJI s800 EVO with Zenmuse and GH3 camera... but I really don';t want to pay out £8k plus just yet.

So when it was suggested in this thread that I build my own 800 diameter copter, I sort of took interest. Building my own would of course allow me to learn and understand my craft. But also to mess things up and crash it! So I am caught in between those two actions.

Since posting this thread, I was given a link where the F550 with zenmuse gimbal and Naza M v2 was being sold for less than £500 which I was gobsmacked at. So although I once discarded the F550 as being too small to be an upgrade and very little benefit over the phantom, my ears are perked right up!

So if that has helped in any way understand what is going round in my head, then you are much sharper than me.

But any advice or options gratefully received.

By the way, Rob. Do you have a web site where you offer build or something? Wouldn';t mind a look.

Thanks
Rich

[Opto-Mystic]

Hi Opto.

Perhaps I should be clearer regarding my naivety. When you say best to go DSLR route... there are option? 

As for the zoom, it is set before take-off. 

I am actually really quite impresses with the stuff I have got from the Gopro, but I am assuming better cameras will go even better in areas I don';t know existed?

I mean, is this quality really that bad? From a little 3 inch weightless piece of plastic lol...

Rooksbury on Vimeo

Hi Richard

I am getting a little out of my depth on this.  I can chat about DSLRs readily when related to normal photography. I have never hung any camera under a drone at all & I have only just built my first quad. I haven';t even looked into what is available in the DSLR kit that is suitable as a drone unit, other than seeing gimbals available for 5D2. (In the 1960s, I did have some years leaning out of small light aircraft pointing a Ross Aero 5x4" camera at other aircraft in formation)

My video experience (other than a few years back with Sony analogue) is restricted to (a) my 5D2 and (b) my GoPro H3Black - I love the GoPro for its image quality & versatility - outstanding.

After reading your earlier posts and seeing the kit you were interested in, I had assumed that you have a reasonably large budget to invest.  That sort of budget does go into the realms of Pro DSLRs

I didn';t mean to infer that the best way to go was the dslr route. I meant it as only one way to go. However it would be an important decision because of the payload requirements of the camera and the lens of choice. I have no idea of what zoom lenses are used with or recommended for drone use.

The other option that I can see, is the use of pro or semi-pro video cameras a subject I know virtually nothing about. Others will have to give input on that.

As I see it & I am probably wrong, the choices are a still camera that can do video or a video camera that can do stills

The GoPro is a magic piece of kit & as I mentioned astounding performance. The only downside is the extreme wide angle lens that grossly distorts straight lines. ( curved horizons etc et al) That said, I will be using only a GoPro...

Because you dont want to hijack your own thread, I will shut up and let others answer your questions about wanting to build a hexewatsit thingy.

[Richlizard]

Thx again Opto. The camera is most definitely an important consideration so you';re not hijacking at all.

I had forgotten about the fisheye. Presumably then this is more exagerrated on the Gopro than other cameras? At the moment, it';s not a massive issue to me as if I am going to stabilise a shaky video anyway, then removing the fisheye is the press of another button and top notch quality is already lost anyway.

But with a more stable machine, I like to think the raw video will be that much steadier so less editing will be needed... so would prefer no fisheye!

[Fettler]

My 2p for what its worth.
So how many motors is best for a heavy lift machine? The answer used to be 'loads' as the only decent motors were small-ish. Its not the case now as there are many efficient low Kv motors available that will lift well above 2kg each so a heavy lift quad is an option.
My opinion is to avoid 6 motors. Most hexcopters wont do well if one motor fails i.e., crash. You have 50% more motors than a quad so more chance of a motor failure.
Most octas will be ok with a single motor failure but you are twice as likely to have one than a quad.
But........Motor,ESC,prop, failures probably account for a small % of total crashes, which makes me favour a heavy lift quad for my next build.
That was not my opinion a few months ago when I built my own Octa. Its is a good heavy lifter and has yanked 6kg payload into the air (10kg tot) but its normal Sony NEX5 and gimbal weigh 1kg which it will carry for about 18mins.
Get 4 big good quality motors and ESC (Tiger) instead of 6/8 smaller ones. Everything is better. Cheaper to buy, smaller overall, easier to fold (possibly) longer flight times (can of worms).
Have just got the octa going nicely. Here is a quick vid with RC zoom fitted on the 18-55 lens.
NEX test edit 2

[guest325]

Have just got the octa going nicely. Here is a quick vid with RC zoom fitted on the 18-55 lens.

Like the RC Zoom, works really nice!

[alex2m]

Hi Rich,
Unlike you, I started with a Flamewheel ... So I';ve been spending more time in the workshop than in the air (should have bought a Phantom).

I';ll be glad to help you build, if you find that daunting. I';m based in Dublin and Kilkenny.

I have a similar project to yours long term, but there are more hurdles than the craft: learning to fly, learning to compose a shot, learning to film with a buddy (one to fly the craft, the other to worry about the pictures), IAA certification ...

You can Pm me and we can exchange phone numbers.

Kind regards, Alex

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[alex2m]

Something else.
If I was to spend a lot of money on a professional rig I certainly wouldn';t do it on ebay.

There is a lot of intangible added value by buying from an established online store and some of them have posts on this forum. Or from a brick and mortar and online expert like Dave Yaffe rcmodelshop.ie (but he will only recommend hardware he has flown himself, so don';t expect impartial opinions ...)

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[powerlord]

My 2c is that the areas where a dslr (aps-c or ff) excels at,  arenot particularly relevant for aerial drone use imho.

Gopros are great,  but unless the client is happy with the wide angle distortion (which is present to a small extent even in narrow mode) they will expect a camera which can shoot general,  say 24-80mm or so footage.
You can remove fisheye well from stills,  but video will always look bad - the movement stretches edges and looks terrible.  I';ve tried all the filters believe me it';s just physics.

So imho that leaves you 2 choices:

- advanced fixed lens compacts (Sony hx50, Sony rx1 full frame sensor etc, )

- micro 4/3.

Some of the latest cameras can be remotely controlled via wifi (eg hx50) which is a great feature for aerial use and also worth looking at.


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Richlizard]

Thanks for the offer of help Alex2m.

Are you saying that the 550 is not worth getting because it is unreliable or frail? My finger is ready on the ';purchase'; button!

[alex2m]

Thanks for the offer of help Alex2m.

Are you saying that the 550 is not worth getting because it is unreliable or frail? My finger is ready on the ';purchase'; button!

You';re welcome ...

So you would have a "genuine" dji f550 + 6 motors + 6 ESC + naza v2 with GPS for less than 500£. That';s very difficult to resist ... I have seen mixed reports on single engine failure resilience with the Naza, but I have seen videos of Arducopter users suffering engine failure and letting the failsafe land the craft... Successfully. Anyway, once you';ll have expensive equipment attached to any craft, you will want a recovery parachute to reduce the potential for damage (and possibly for insurance reasons).

If it was my money, I';d get the 550. It will never be wasted ... You can always sell it and upgrade later, residual values are very strong as you can see from the Classified section, and sought items like Naza don';t stay for sale for very long.

Have you given any thought to the radio setup?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[alex2m]

Oh, that had the zenmuse too!! Excellent value ... The rctimer 800 looks interesting too ...

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Richlizard]

Have you given any thought to the radio setup?

I already have a Futaba T8J which I understand can fly both the phantom and the F550. Which reminds me, I must add an ImmersionRC to my list!

[Opto-Mystic]

I know its not a 550 like the one you are possibly getting but I have just mounted the Zenmuse H3-2D gimbal on my 450. I am using the Futaba T8J, the same as yours. mapping the VR control to point the GoPro up an down. (I must add that I am very impressed with the gimbal - Smooth as silk, stable as heck and NO jello!)

[Gav]

I';ve not trawled through all of this thread but I gather you';re after a 550.  Yeah sod the phantom its naff in any kind of wind and an off the shelf ready to fly plastic fantastic, where is the fun in that?  And yes get a 550 its a great all rounder.   Redundancy if an esc fails and can lump a gopro or bigger with relative ease and still do about 35mph with gimbal if you need to chase a car lol.  Power it from 2x 3s 2200mah in parallel for cheap power or 4s also for extra omph.  Very versitile size hex.  I';m still considering adding two arms and replacing the frame plates to my 450 to transform into a 550. 

[alex2m]

I';m still considering adding two arms and replacing the frame plates to my 450 to transform into a 550.

I bought a 450 with exactly that plan in mind, but I must admit, a very similar money to the update (36£ for the plates and 10£ for 2 arms) would buy the rctimer 800

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Richlizard]

Thanks for the info. How do I run two lots of batteries? I got loads of those 2200';s lying around :)

As for the 4s, still confused by the site';s comment that you must use a 3s with 10" props... and then they tell me to buy a 4s battery. Awaiting answer as we speak.

I am actually buying it for the deal and will no doube eventually try putting it all on to a larger frame... maybe a tarot. What could possibly go wrong? 

I';ve not trawled through all of this thread but I gather you';re after a 550.  Yeah sod the phantom its naff in any kind of wind and an off the shelf ready to fly plastic fantastic, where is the fun in that?  And yes get a 550 its a great all rounder.   Redundancy if an esc fails and can lump a gopro or bigger with relative ease and still do about 35mph with gimbal if you need to chase a car lol.  Power it from 2x 3s 2200mah in parallel for cheap power or 4s also for extra omph.  Very versitile size hex.  I';m still considering adding two arms and replacing the frame plates to my 450 to transform into a 550.

[Gav]

Simply make a ';Y'; harness and link 2 lipos in parallel.  those 2200mAh 3S lipos are cheap as chips.  3s is good with 10" props yes so is 4s if you fly a porker and need extra beans and don';t want to waste a life exchanging motors and props to find the best solution.  Might not be the most efficient route and perhaps someone could say the best motor and prop config for 4s on a 550?   But I do know a chap flying a 550 with 10 x 5 graupners with 3s lipos in parallel so I know it works well. and that is with dji stiock motors which are 900 odd kv. 

I run 1000kv motors on my 450 and camera gimbal with 10x5 graupners .  With a 3s  it was scary to fly with butt clenching full throttle moments to stop a fast decent lol.  With 4s it is like it has a turbo fitted and just the job to hoick up my gimbal and skid assembly. 

I would only go 9" if I was not bothering to lift a gimbal.   

[Michael Kheng]

Rich, just go for the S800 Evo with Zenmuse & GH3, you know you want to.. :)

[Richlizard]

Still not getting through to this old head.

So are you saying two lots of 3s are better than one 4s or vice versa for a fully gimballed multi?

Googling Y harness brings me up some rather kinky underwear, but I will keep looking.  ::)

Simply make a ';Y'; harness and link 2 lipos in parallel.  those 2200mAh 3S lipos are cheap as chips.  3s is good with 10" props yes so is 4s if you fly a porker and need extra beans and don';t want to waste a life exchanging motors and props to find the best solution.  Might not be the most efficient route and perhaps someone could say the best motor and prop config for 4s on a 550?   But I do know a chap flying a 550 with 10 x 5 graupners with 3s lipos in parallel so I know it works well. and that is with dji stiock motors which are 900 odd kv. 

I run 1000kv motors on my 450 and camera gimbal with 10x5 graupners .  With a 3s  it was scary to fly with butt clenching full throttle moments to stop a fast decent lol.  With 4s it is like it has a turbo fitted and just the job to hoick up my gimbal and skid assembly. 

I would only go 9" if I was not bothering to lift a gimbal.