Total beginner to FPV, where to start?

[S7ewie]

Hey all,

I'm looking for a forum to help me on my journey so hopefully its here :) ..

I'm Stuart, I'm 28 and live in Suffolk in east Anglia. I've been flying a DJI Spark for the past year or so for photography but recently I've gotten really excited about FPV drones (more so for freestyle and recording than racing but that might be something I consider in the future if I get good enough).

The problem is, I don't really know where to begin. From what I can work out, my best bet would be to start in a simulator, so yesterday I bought Liftoff and had a go with an xbox controller but found it quite hard to get a feel for. So I'm thinking about buying a radio that's compatible with the software. 

I started off looking at things like the Frsky Q7, then the SE, now I'm considering just going straight for the X9D SE 2019 edition. I tend to prefer to spend the money now and get something that will last me a looong time, than skimp a bit and get something that I might need to replace in a year or two. There seems to be a lot of different versions so i'm struggling a bit to work out the difference and which one I should ultimately get.

Any advice? on radio and aaanything else I need to consider?

Thanks :)

[trebor]

I started with Spektrum and switched to Frsky. Might be worth looking at Tbs tango. Depends how involved with programming you want to get. If you just fly quads try Tbs or if you fly Rc Planes as well better with Frsky with all the trimmings.

[ched]

A sim is a great starting point. If you are used to an xbox controller then maybe the 'FrSky X-Lite S' would be a good idea. It has the same software (OpenTX) as the X9D it's much smaller like a games controller. Trying to use a games controller will be megga difficult as you just don't get the minute control you need.
The x-lite s version does almost the same as the x9d it does need 2x18650 batteries but they are charged via usb in the tx.
The tbs tango is just out and is getting great reviews. It has crossfire built in which gives amazing range and penetration (so if you are planning on very long range or flying in and round buildings its great). The only downside to me is the antenna size required to go on the quad, it's a bit big.
Back to sims, I am not familiar with Liftoff other than it gets good reviews. As I mainly practice on a i3 laptop I can't run liftoff so I use Velocidrone. I have also used fpvfreerider which is quite good and cheap, also has versions for android and apple.
On velocidrone it has a similar interface to BetaFlight (the software that the flight controllers (FC)on most quads uses) so you can set use your rates in the game for your quad. Rates are a very important thing, they govern how fast the quad rolls, pitches and yaws in relation to your tx sticks movement. While freestylers run over a 1000 degrees per second that does make them very sensitive to small stick movements. You can slow down rates at the beginning to allow you to learn the control of your fingers you need. for example if you set RC rate to 1.00, Super to 0.66 an expo to 0 you will get enough 'speed' to do rolls, flip etc but you can move the sticks quite a bit in the middle without massive movements of the quad. Hopefully that gives you an idea of rates.

As for real flying at this time of year especially with the current weather it's difficult outdoors. So an indoor whoop style quad is a great idea. There is a kit of everything to get you started by Emax. It's called the Emax Tinyhawk FPV Kit it's about £120. You would eventually need to replace the tx and the goggles but it would get you started and flying round the house or outdoors in light wind.
The tinyhawk is a great indoor quad to start on and comes with a FrSky rx so will bind to FrSky tx (as long as right protocol, a complex issue at moment and this post is long enough  ) There are cheaper indoor fpv quads like the Eachines e010 that are about £14 but you then need to add fpv and goggles. They are good for learning to fly Line Of Sight (LOS) as you get used to orientation etc but I still think if you can afford it a tinyhawk is better.

Hope that helps, if you have any questions just ask.

[S7ewie]

Thanks for the comments! Really useful info!

To be honest, I'm not used to an xbox controller at all. But I was the only controller I had available so I gave it a try (I"m not a console gamer, I just have one in case I need one fory PC). If anything, I thought getting a bigger radio might be better as I've quite big clumsy hands. Do you not think it's worth getting something like the X9D to begin with then?

Ultimately I'd really like to build my own. I used to love soldering and I've been looking for something to build for ages so that really appeals to me. But until I get used to it in a simulator, a smaller house drone sounds like a good idea :)

Thanks

[ched]

Thanks for the comments! Really useful info!

To be honest, I'm not used to an xbox controller at all. But I was the only controller I had available so I gave it a try (I"m not a console gamer, I just have one in case I need one fory PC). If anything, I thought getting a bigger radio might be better as I've quite big clumsy hands. Do you not think it's worth getting something like the X9D to begin with then?

Ultimately I'd really like to build my own. I used to love soldering and I've been looking for something to build for ages so that really appeals to me. But until I get used to it in a simulator, a smaller house drone sounds like a good idea :)

Thanks

The x9d has been the 'standard' quality tx for quite a while. So it has lots of support on youtube for all the things it can do. FrSky have recently become a bit protectionist. Basically the tx 'talks' to the receiver in a certain language (Protocol) for quite a number of years this has been ACCST which worked great. Then Jumper brought out the T16 radio (great competitor at cheaper price and a little lower quality). FrSky was already working on a new protocol called ACCESS which is encrypted!!! So only FrSky can make compatible receivers!! That came out in 2019 and again works fine and supposedly is better!!! Then in 2020 FrSky released an update to 'fix' and issue with ACCST that no one was bothered by that also added encryption and called it ACCST 2.0. The problem is that if you updated the Firmware to ACCST 2.0 you can only use frsky rx. The main problem that creates is with little whoops with inbuilt spi receivers. These are not made by FrSky so wont work with ACCST 2.0 or ACCESS.
It's all a bit complex. I only switched to FrSky late last year as I switched to sub 250 gms quads and couldn't get good receivers for FlySky) My personal thoughts are that as long as you don't have old rx then the new stuff from FrSky is fine, I have no issues with encryption and using FrSky rx other than inbuilt spi receivers on micro quads. But I think there is a work round for that.

One problem I can see is with the Jumper T16 radios. They currently are compatible with ACCST rx but not ACCST 2.0 rx. So when and it will be a when FrSky only make ACCST 2.0 and ACCESS rx the Jumper will only be able to use 3rd party receivers!!!

Just to mention again the Crossfire system, this is built by tbs and is a great product but you are limited to tbs crossfire receivers I believe.
So effectively what is happening is FrSky is making it's receivers only work with it's tx.

The FrSky TARANIS X9D Plus 2019 uses ACCESS and ACCST D16 only (can be flashed to ACCST 2.0) but D16 only may not be compatible with the spi built in rx. There may be a work round using a lua script to change the tx to a non EU type but I havent tested it yet 

Have a look at the FrSky TARANIS X9 Lite as it's half the price of an x9d with almost same functionality (same software OpenTX) but a bit lower build quality.
The FrSky TARANIS X-Lite S is small and light has built in charging via usb(you need 18650 batts) and has hall effect gimbals (potentiometer gimbals do wear out but hall ones don't).

Hope that doesn't confuse you too much.

If you want a great radio and don't mind size go for the x9d or the lite version to save a few quid. If you fancy a small radio go with x-lite. If you want long range the tbs tango is a great radio for the money and uses OpenTX software so lots of tutorials.
All the above connect to a pc via usb for sims. FrSky have a usb receiver so you are wireless between controller and pc. I use one and it's great.

[ched]

Just tried LiftOff as it was a free weekend. I was only using an old i5 desktop with an old graphics card. WOW it's bad on my pc.... Turned the graphics way down then I couldn't read the menus!!! Tried flying after having to set x-lite to 50% outputs and exp as youtube vid and it's terrible to fly. I think that's just my pc though.
There are the options to set rates as per BetaFlight so that's good.
My PC's just not up to it 

[S7ewie]

Hope that doesn't confuse you too much.

Errrrrm kinda? haha. I must admit, when I was researching the Frsky radios, everything seemed good and positive until very recently people started to show some concern and I guess that's why?

By the sound of it though, as I'm completely new to this part of the hobby and I don't already own any receivers, it shouldn't be too much of a problem as I won't have any past compatibility issues to worry about?

I think I'm just gonna bite the bullet and go for the X9D Plus SE with the view that it should do everything I need and last me a very long time.

Don't suppose we get any discount codes for any retailers on here do we haha?

Liftoff runs fine for me but I do have a gaming PC haha. Just think I need to get myself used to using a proper radio.

Thanks for the help again :)

[ched]

I'm not aware of any discount codes, sorry. Have a look at hobbyrc.co.uk, quadcopters.co.uk. Although HobbyRC do send out a 5% code with purchases I have made previously. So could be worth say ordering a receiver then using the code when you order tx, but I can't guarantee you will get a code.

I guess you know that mode 2 is normal (throttle and yaw on left, pitch and roll on right stick)? I know you can change x-lite so I suspect you can change x9d but just thought I would mention it. Also standard UK supplier will send a LBT-EU radio so it's legal in UK. LBT = Listen Before Talk, EU just the regs that require LBT. There is a lua script that switches between LBT and FCC (rest of world) system.
Lua scripts are bits of code (downloads usually freeware) that add functionality to OpenTX radios. There is also one for BetaFlight so you can change PIDs, rates, vtx(if connected to uart) etc from the tx. You can also do it via BF OSD (On Screen Display) but lua scripts were about first and can be done without your goggles on  
As you say, you don't have any legacy kit so you will be fine. I only switched last year so I don't have anything that wont work, although I did get a Emax TinkHawk Freestyle that had a built in spi rx that wouldn't work so I fitted a R-XSR rx. Now I have discovered the lua script to change from LBT-EU to FCC it would probably work with the spi rx but I desoldered the antenna wire plus spi rx are poor at range and I do fly a fair range with it. I was aware of the spi issue with my radio so ordered an rx at same time.

[S7ewie]

Awesome thanks again!

Yeah I assumed mode 2 was normal as that's pretty much how my DJI is set up (just with all the auto leveling and angle limiters active).

I'll order that then and spend a few hours on the simulator :)

Thanks for the help. I'll be back haha.

[S7ewie]

Bit the bullet and went for the XD9 SE 2019 based on the advice I've received here and my own research. Absolutely love it! Well happy! Can't wait to get started using it.

The battery is a bit loose because of the size of it and space in the compartment. Is it safe to put a bit of foam or something on it to hold it steady? Not sure if they get hot?



Edit: Ordered from HobbyRC and they were brilliant! Really helpful and best price I could find :)

[badger1]

looks good - I've always been very happy with my X9D.

a bit of foam is fine to stop it rattling about, the current draw is very low on Tx batteries so it won't get hot.

[ched]

Now to get lots of sim practice   
Looks great.

[S7ewie]

Thanks! Tried it on the sim for a couple of hours this evening. Feel like I'm getting used to it quicker than I thought. Went from not being able to hold it in the air to weaving in and out of trees.. granted I still hit a LOT and crashed a LOT but I'm already feeling somewhat comfortable with the feel. The X9D feels really good in my hands too.

Here's to many many more hours in the Sim before I work out the next step haha.

Thanks

[ched]

Flying in the sim is easier as you are not worried about an expensive crash  it does help a lot though. Not only in confidence but in getting your fingers used the movements. If your sim is using betaflight type code you can play with the rates on sim then copy them across to real quad, don't play with pids yet as they should be good on quad as it comes.

[S7ewie]

Flying in the sim is easier as you are not worried about an expensive crash 

That's very true! I imagine I'll be a lot less confident when it's my money on the line haha. Plus wind and other factors will have more of an effect.

Are there any good guides on using OpenTX? There doesn't seem to be a full manual for the X9D, just a quickstart manual and there seems to be a heck of a lot of depth to it which isn't covered. Not really sure how to set it up for anything. Took me 10 minutes to work out how to turn it on (I had it plugged into the PC to charge, didn't realize you couldn't turn it on whilst it was plugged in).

I'm also thinking ahead at the next step. I think the biggest thing is going to be the goggles. They look very expensive. I think I also want to try one of these smaller indoor drones before going all out and building one too. Which of them are best to look at?

[ched]

As for Taranis it's a bit weird. As it's running Open Source software, OpenTX, then there are so many guide on YouTube it's unbelievable. Look for Painless360, Josh Bardwell and oscarliang.com website. You should find what you want to do there. Basically you can do anything with it!!! I started out just setting up channels, then added telemetry, then added verbal warnings, etc etc.... Remember you can backup your tx in OpenTX Companion so you can always go back!!!! I would say learn this first  so you always have a good backup in case you mess things up.

Goggles are the huge expense. I started with £35 box goggles from HobbyKing. They were/are huge. They were a 4.5" lcd screen in a polystyrene box with a neoprene sleeve to hold it together and strap to your face. It worked fine but was a huge weight to hang on the front of your face and every time you crashed you had to take it off, put it down and search for your quad 

Things have moved on a bit, the ev800D - £70 are probably the cheapest box style goggles that are reasonable. The 'D' model have diversity (uses 2 antenna and switches to which ever is giving best signal) and a dvr handy to 'rewind' footage to see where you crashed 
The cheapest 'fatshark' style goggles are the ev100 - £90 with the dvr module (Diopter adj +2 to 4 I think). They are great value for money but the image is small and a bit like looking down a short smartie tube. These were my second goggles and after the Quanum Big Box goggles they were amazing. So much lighter and easier to just pop on your head while retrieving a crashed quad 
Then you are Skyzone 02c - £200 which are great goggles and have built in receivers (as does ev100) great menus and good dvr.
Next up are Skyzone03O - £320 which have built in modules, great menu, great dvr and great OLED Screens.
No we are getting serious....
The Fatshark HDO2 - £450-£500 with module Amazing images, big field of view, naff dvr, need module (£35-£130) great customer support (2 year worldwide gtee) ability to adjust for eyesight (Diopter adj +2 to -6 I think).
There are also the amazing digital DJI goggles - £420 + extras These are dogital transmission and are amazing quality. You will need a digital camera and vtx (£120) for each quad. You can also get an adapter (£10-20) that allows an analogue module to be plugged in. So you get great screens, good dvr (Digital only) the ability to use digital vtx and analogue for about the same as HDO2's!!! They are a little bigger than the Fatsharks or the skyzones but maybe best to future proof things?
Obviously there are other goggles out there I just summarised a range of good value for money stuff.

As for indoor quads, there are a few.
There is a kit that may be of interest to you the emax tinyhawk2 - £130 which is a 1 or 2S indoor & outdoor in light winds quad, a set of box goggles and a tx (Frsky but D8 your tx only does D16). It's a great quad to learn with as it's fairly robust and flies well. Goggles are cheap ones but get you started, and the tx, well it comes with it and is ready to go. You an add an xm+ to the quad so you can fly with your tx.
As for just indoor then the e010 - £15 will get you flying round the room but with the little plastic tx. For the money it's great to have a play round the house but power is low and supplied tx isn't good but it's only £15 and gets you used to orientation.
Then there are things like the mobula6 - £70 then add a xm+ rx which comes with 4 batteries and is very powerful, you will need to limit throttle a bit and turn rates down  I have 1 on order 
Very sightly bigger the trashcan - £70 + xm+ rx. Which is a bit bigger and comes with 4 batteries and charger.

Hope that gives you some ideas. Before you buy just ask and we will have a look if you want?

[S7ewie]

Thanks again for the really in depth post! I definitely found the right forum haha.

Yeah I've been looking at Josh Bardwell and oscarliang.com, I'll check the other one out too. There's so much to the X9D, I'm not really sure where to start haha.

Yeah I really want the Fatshark HDO2 but with the transmitters and everything else it's very costly. I don't think I want to go straight in with that until I'm 100% sure that I'm committed to FPV flying. At the same time thought I don't really want to spend £200 - £300 on something that isn't perfect either. Maybe I'll get something very cheap and basic to have a play with, then go for the HDO2s when i feel like I'm ready to take it more seriously.

I'd definitely prefer to get a mini drone that I can use my radio with, can you explain what xm + rx is please?

[ched]

Sorry for long posts, I have never been good at short explanations     

As your radio (& mine) are not capable of doing ACCST D8 mode only ACCST D16 or ACCESS. As standard UK purchased Taranis tx should also be EU-LBT (this is an addition to both protocols that, I believe listens for a receiver before deciding to transmit!!! Some silly EU Rule).

So most current ready to fly micro quads come with a FrSky compatible spi receiver. Most of the micro AIO (All In One) FC are some sort of CrazyBee ones. They seem to be mainly D8 mode, some have BetaFlight version that does D8 EU-LBT some don't (not sure if its a BF version or a spi rx issue). Techincally the spi rx can do D16 but the early versions couldn't handle the extra data on D16 and would fall from sky. I'm not sure if the newer ones are OK with D16. If they are OK with D16 then there is a youtube vid by CurryKitten that details a LUA script (little bit of code that runs on Taranis/OpenTX) to enable you to have extra functionality. That allows you to switch from EU-LBT to FCC mode with a few clicks on the tx.
So IF the new spi FrSky compatible rx work on D16 then you should be OK...... but I am guessing a bit as I havent tested that yet. Waiting for my Mobula6 to arrive but Chinese New Year and Virus holding things up... I do have a TinyHawk Freestyle that had a spi rx but I added an external rx (R-XSR) and removed the spi rx antenna before I found out about the LUA script!

The XM+ rx is a FrSky receiver that is about 1.5gms that can be added to most (not found one you can't) fc even if they have spi rx built in. They connect to a uart on the FC. The xm+ is the second smallest FrSky rx, the only smaller one is the xm but that's not full range (only about 300m). There is not much price or weight difference so XM+ is better as you can use it in any other build in future should the old micro quad be retired.
The R-XSR is a bit more expensive and very slightly heavier than xm+ but does full telemetry. That is it can send lots of data back to tx. Like flight bat voltage, gps if you have it, current again if you have, and all sorts of other stuff. XM+ only gives rssi (received signal strength) as telemetry.

I recently changed from ev100 to hdo2 and WOW what a difference. I did manage to get a TrueD-X module for £31 which was a great deal. They are so much better but the ev100 are perfectly flyable. With the HDO2 I can see the netting on the field I fly on where the ev100 I couldn't really. So unless you are trying to dodge small branches the budget ones will be fine. As you say wait till you are committed plus I do think you learn to work round issues that you didn't realise where there when you upgrade 
The EV800D are good and they convert to a standalone screen which is hand on the bench.

I started with a FlySky i6 radio (£35) (then Turnigy evolution £30) and they did me well until I wanted to fly sub 250gms then I couldn't get decent rx so changed to FrSky (X-Lite-S). The extras are great and I only had to learn the FrSky stuff not all quad info at once, so it sort of lessened my learning curve.
It's only due to a couple of recent windfalls that I have been able to upgrade 

[S7ewie]

Its usually me getting told off for leaving really long posts haha.

Thanks, I think I understand. So would they need soldering on or do they just slot into a connection?

Hmm.. I'd be very tempted to go straight for a HDO2 if they are that good haha, I really hate wasting money on things that get replaced quickly but then again, if I don't get into it, the cost of the HDO2 would be an even bigger waste of money. But then, I guess i could always sell it?

Realistically what's the full cost of a HDO2? they obviously need a module to connect the transmitters? then a couple of transmitters? does the battery come with it? I presume we're looking at about £500 over all?

[ched]

XM+ rx will need to be soldered on. There are a few quads that have a cable ready to plug in an r-xsr (as they have a plug) but xm+ just have solder connections or pins you solder in to then use a servo type plug to use. Soldering to add a rx to micro quads is never easy. I use some +2 reading glasses to try and make it easier. I am used to soldering though. I was trained as electronic engineer many years ago 

HDO2:
I ordered mine on 23rd dec. HDO2, TrueD-X, and Menace RC antenna pack inc delivery £495 and that was with a 5% discount on quadcopters.co.uk. I don't think they stopped the discount code quick enough on the site after they received the HDO2s  . So mine arrived Xmas Eve  . I had some 18650 batteries but that would have been another £10-12. The TrueD-X was on a megga deal at £35 no idea why as it's normally more like £100! The ultimate module is the RapidFire but that's £130!!!!

As for video transmitters (vtx) they start at about £10 for a vtx03S (0 to 200mw, with smart audio - change channel, band and power via BF OSD or lua script on tx) to a Rush Tank vtx - £29 (0-800mW and smart audio) or TBS Unity Pro HV at about £48!!!!.

The vtx03S are great for the money. In my opinion the differences between vtx are some extra power (UK limit 25mW!!!  ) and better at reducing/eliminating interference! I fly under hv power lines and I get a few lines on screen while I fly under. I get a few less with the tbs Unify Race HV (£23 max 200mW). I don't tend to fly very far away so range never an issue. If I fly my Emax TinyHawk Freestyle it only has 25mW and a naff antenna (to be changed soon) I can fly all round a football field and behind me no problem until the antenna gets blocked by battery then I get a little break up.

Thinking about the goggles the EV800D are relatively cheap at £80 and have multi uses. When setting your quad up on bench (Remember NEVER power up a vtx without an antenna, you will kill it!) you can use the ev800d as a monitor, then in field use as goggles. When you decide to upgrade you can still use them as monitor on bench or spectator googgles. So not a waste as such, HDO2 are a BIG expense especially when you are not sure how you will get on.

HDO not the new HDO2 are selling on ebay for about £300 used. Can't see any HDO2 for sale used! So I guess you would lose more than £80!!!

[S7ewie]

Thanks, definitely got some more thinking to do.

On a side note, I've been practicing in the simulator and also watching videos of people flying on YouTube. I'm getting better at flying at speed, I struggle with slower movements and making sharp turns, I tend to "drift" more than I want to. I also noticed that most people seem to have their throttle set up so that they lift off the ground before they get to the mid point on the stick. Mine lifts off after the mid point so I'm stretching a lot of the time. Can I adjust this in the TX? And is there a "standard" setup or is everyone different?

[ched]

Which Sim are you using? The % throttle required to hover/takeoff varies between quads. My R349 is about 20%, X120 25% and TinyHawk Freestyle 20%. You can use your tx to adjust the take off point using throttle curve but I will give a non linear throttle response that might be interesting!
50% does seem too high.
My old F450 Naza hovered at 50% but that was FC controlled to be at hover at 50%.

I think on Velocidrone and FPVFreerider  it's about 30%, CurryKittens sim (still in alpha version) it was 25% not its about 10%!!

Have you setup your tx to the sim? i.e. sometimes you have to tweek the stick ranges, I think for fpvfreerider I had to reduce inputs down to 50% and on LiftOff they said reduce range and add expo on tx to between 25% and 15%. So maybe have a look for the sim and taranis setup on youtube? 

PS you may be able to reduce stick throws by adjusting the stick ends on your tx. This wont solve 50% hover though. I have short fingers and still find some full stick movements a stretch even on the x-lite!

[S7ewie]

Using Liftoff.

Yeah I followed a couple of guides on youtube on how to set it up, it didn't make much of a difference though, it worked out the box fine. But its still about 50% to hover, I'm constantly on the upper half of the sticks. Maybe I need to change settings in liftoff itself.

Is there a general guide that people aim for? Or is it personal preference?

[ched]

Have a look here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/410340/discussions/1/360672047211385036/
seems like you can download a taranis model setup to upload to your tx via OpenTX. I haven't tried this method but the thread should help?
Or:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDdZbcF2dUM
looks like it might be the way to go?
I assume you have both Weight and Offset to 50%?

I don't think it's a case of setting it up to your liking as such. Different quads have different amounts of thrust they generate and different weights. So they will all have different throttle amounts to takeoff. 50% seems way too high for a normal (race or acrobatic) quad. I would guess 15% to 30% would be more normal. But it's not something you normally setup it's just a characteristic of motors, props, and weight.

I would guess it's a setup in your tx that is effecting LiftOff.

You can download FPVFreerider demo version and give that a try. The taranis setup (use a new model) is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwSDHIR7yDwSOGhPMTFyWEpDVWM/view.

[ched]

I struggle with slower movements and making sharp turns, I tend to "drift" more than I want to.

Forgot this bit. Turn a little earlier and give it a bit of throttle to pull you round after you are sort of facing the way you want to go. Bit like front wheel drive car and accelerating out of corner after apex.