Another beginner asking the world of you guys....

[tipsy trucker]

Having just lost my quad to the wind (and trees) I've decided I'd like to build my own, just "because" really.

As a little bit of background, I'm a qualified mechanic and have also worked as an engineer. Electronics aren't really a strong point although my dad has worked in electronics all his working life and even taught it at some of the local colleges so I have a bit of understanding and a very valuable backup plan... ask dad 

I can build a carbon fibre frame without too much trouble but it's selecting parts that I'm going to need some help with, currently it's a fairly blank canvas so hopefully it won't be too difficult to get some sort of a shopping list drawn up (famous last words eh?)

This is almost just for fun but I'm trying to build something of excellent quality and with enough features to be a pleasure to use and also good enough to be useful if I ever find a use for an eye in the sky.

It doesn't need to be especially fast but I don't mind if it turns out that way

It does need excellent range - well over 1000m including however the camera transmits and a battery life to cope - obviously that means it'll need to carry a reasonable size battery.

I'd like fpv

I could do with GPS and preferably return to home

Needs to be quite wind resistant

The ideal for me, I think, would be a stack that has all of the above and a the transmitter (handset?) To suit and I'll take it from there with battery motors etc

Any help much appreciated

[mo_miah]

most 5in+ quads will have the capacity to do 1km and back providing the radio link is good
i think the Frsky stuff is good for 2miles in an open field
TBS crossfire is even better
TBS unify will give you a pretty solid video link

you can buy ready made frames which might be better unless you want a huge drone

5in plus will carry a decent size battery and a small gps module for return to home

do you want something that you fly or something that you set a route and flies itself?

do you have any gear already? starting up can be quite expensive

what drones have you flown before?

[tipsy trucker]

I don't have anything at all yet. And only starting out really  having flown a couple of Chinese efforts. I'm ok with a bit of expense, within reason. Not too worried about plotting routes but anything cool is fine by me!

[mo_miah]

a radio transmitter will cost about £100+
you could get cheaper but might struggle to go 1km

if you want fpv then goggles do cost a bit depending on whether you want the large box style or the smaller fatshark/aomway style ones
each has its pros/cons be it price/quality/features/tech support and repairs

then you will need a charger and lipos

the quad itself will cost £100+ depending on what frames motors esc flight controllers etc you go for, bigger the quad the more it will cost

[tipsy trucker]

That's about the price range I have in mind, up to roughly 250 with a little wiggle room beyond that - I don't want to go too mad just yet.

[ched]

From your experience and your backup you should be able to build a quad. It is a steep learning curve but we are here to help  ::)

Very simplistically 5" quads are generally for wizzing round and acrobatics. They are not stable camera platforms or really distance machines as they normally have a flight time of 5-8mins.
If you want a camera platform then the best is probably a second hand DJI Phantom of some description. They have 20+mins flight time, come with tx and can use phone/tablet to see what the quad can see.

If you do want to build a 5" then have a look at the 250 build section for ideas.
250 is a sort of category as its a measurement between motor centres in mm. These normally use 5" props. Basically a 5" quad will be fairly robust, I have crashed many many times and it's still going strong, touch wood. They have carbon frames 4mm thick arms, etc. A budget build would be about £100 ish, a budget tx (Flysky i6) about £40, Battery charger £20, batteries £18 each (only 5-8min per batt), then if you want to fly with goggles (FPV) then budget goggles (box £30 fatshark style £80).

Hope that gives you some ideas?

[tipsy trucker]

Thankyou, it's certainly more of a camera drone I have in mind. I was thinking around the 8" mark I.e. not huge but enough?

I'll look into the boards mentioned earlier, I'm guessing the output for the motors is a set thing - is there some guide to how to choose the size of the prop's?

[ched]

Thankyou, it's certainly more of a camera drone I have in mind. I was thinking around the 8" mark I.e. not huge but enough?

I'll look into the boards mentioned earlier, I'm guessing the output for the motors is a set thing - is there some guide to how to choose the size of the prop's?

Motors are usually listed by stator size and kv. i.e. 2205 2300kv means 22mm diameter and a stator height of 5mm, it rotates at 2300rpm per volt. So at 4s (16.8v) = theoretical ly 16.8 x 2300 = 38640rpm.  Basically the smaller the prop the higher kv required. So a 5" prop is normally about 2300kv to 2700kv.
I have an old F450 (dji frame) with 920kv motors running 10" props and 3S battery. I use this with a 3 axis gimbal holding a camera underneath.
I would guess you would need a 1200kv to 1400kv motor but that is a guess.

The prop size is sort of determined by the frame. Frames are normally dimensioned by the distance between motors. i.e. my F450 is 450mm between motors takes 10" props, my Martian3 220 is 220mm between motors takes 5" props.

Basically bigger props are more efficient. So my F450 which weighs about 2kg runs 3300mAh 3S battery and will fly for about 8-10mins. My Martian3 weighs about 500gms runs 1500Mah 4S battery flys for 5-6mins.

So I guess find a frame suitable for 8" props, then search google for other people using same frame. So you can see what type of motors they use etc. Always best to see what everyone else is using as a good guide.

Banggood are a cheap chinese supplier but take a few weeks to deliver.
HobbyKing are OK but watch delivery charges and which warehouse the bits are coming from. Both the above don't have UK levels of customer service!!!!!

I have had great service from HobbyRC but I don't think they have a big enough frame for you.

Hope that gives you some ideas?

Added clarification, Thanks Reman for the reminder.

[Reman]

Motors are listed by stator size

Usually !

A few companies still insist on referring to the overall motor dimensions as their "Motor size". You may see a 2826 motor advertised for a reasonable price, But when you do a little digging you realise that going by the stator size it really should be classed as a 2212 or 2216 motor. This isn't really a problem with motors for 5" quads though as I've never seen anyone making a 2205 that used anything other than the stator dimensions as the named size.

It's always worth finding out what the overall diameter of any motor you're thinking of getting is though, That way you can tell which measurement they're using.

[tipsy trucker]

I'm getting a bit lost with all the abbreviations if I'm honest

I see some places sell stacks of usually three boards that sound like they'll do pretty much everything, can anyone point me at something like that and a transmitter please? presumably, I'll need other bits to add to that. Like the camera, gimbal and gps? And will that setup specify what motors it's compatible with or is that usually something that can be set up?

I wasn't very clear earlier, when I said fpv, I'm happy with just being able to view on my phone (which is 5g compatible), goggles really don't matter.

[ched]

I think the 'stack; you are referring to is 2 or 3 parts.
These are simplistic answers.
FC = Flight Controller - This is the computer that is passed the receiver signal and works out which motor should spin at what speed to do what you ask. If you want gps then you need a FC that can talk to a gps module and suitable software like iNav. BetaFlight doesn't really do gps although latest does an emergency return to home type thing.

ESC = Electronic Speed Controller - This gets the low power signal from the FC and provides high current pulses to the motor to make them rotate as requested by the FC.

Some stacks also have:
PDB = Power Distribution Board - provides regulated voltage sources typically 12v, 5v and enables esc to be connected to flight battery.
VTX= Video Transmitters - that relay a picture from an onboard camera to a receiver on the ground.

I would say start by looking for a frame for 8" props, then suitable motors, then esc, then Flight Controller.....

As for transmitter, well the 'standard' is the Frsky Taranis X9D (about £160) or the Frsky Taranis Q X7 (£90) for a budget tx FlySky i6 is about £40.

FPV wise - normally 5.8Ghz is the transmit frequency and you need a transmitter on the quad and a receiver on the ground. Most goggles have receivers built in or you can buy a box like this https://goo.gl/QSjbkR for about £18 to receive the video pictures and show them on your phone.

To be honest if you just want to fly round looking at pictures I would strongly recommend a dji Phantom. They are easy to fly and provide great images.

Building your own is very satisfying but getting all the bits to work together in perfect harmony is quite a learning curve.

Whichever of the transmitters you get they can all plug into a pc or laptop (you might need an additional cable £8) and you can start to learn to fly with a simulator like FPVFreerider (aout £8) free demo version will get you started.

There are many youtue vids about building quads. Try looking at Josh Bardwell, Blue Falcon, Painless 360, and many more. They will all have 'build' vids and learning to fly vids to give you some ideas on how things go together.

[mo_miah]

i agree a dji would be the best option for you, they have a range of drones at different price ranges

[Elmattbo]

I’ll be honest, if you’re expecting to do a self build with all the features you suggest and then to take it out 1km... well one of a couple of things are going to happen. You’ll get frustrated with an expensive, complicated build and never finish it, or if you do finish it you will lose it.

There are a lot of things to consider and of course it can be done, but what you’re suggesting is the equivalent of deciding you’re going to get into skateboarding by going to the top of the half pipe and launching yourself down on your first run.

I would say that you should decide what you want to do first, have the camera platform or the challenge of the build because you can’t do both together. If it’s the camera platform, then get a dji product as mentioned above. However please be aware that 1km is a fair old distance and there are plenty of videos on the internet of people losing their drones attempting such a thing; it’s also illegal.

If you want to do the build, then you’ve come to the right place to get help although most people focus on racing drones here. They do have an aerial photography potential but it’s really about moving around an object than a slow panning vista. However we can certainly help you with any problems you find as you go along.

Finally, here’s my top tip; don’t put any props on your build until it’s been properly tested!

Good luck!!


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[tipsy trucker]

That's a bit disappointing to be honest, and thankyou for pointing out that over 1km isn't legal - I hadn't even considered that. It would be nice to know it can, even if it never will.

Ok, I hope you don't think me ignorant but I still want to give this my best shot as I  think I'll enjoy the learning curve/project itself.

I've found a chassis (frame?) That I'm interested in. That'll answer that particular question but probably also restrict what batteries I can choose. Its a 500 but I have also seen a couple of 450s I'd consider.

So, I still need to figure out the electronic side of things. It seems to me that these stacks have everything to get the thing flying but nothing much else. How do you go from there to adding a camera with transmitter and GPS, a way of using the GPS (display mostly) and a return to home?

[ched]

It's great that you are going to give it a go.
I would say tell us the frames you like the look of and now we know what you are thinking of doing we can suggest the other bits.
I would say get it flying and learn to fly it then add a gimbal etc.
I would suggest a f4 type flight controller running iNav software. Separate esc, one per arm, maybe a power distribution board but these sometimes are built in on frames.
One thing we need to think about is the flight controller is that you need enough uart (serial interfaces these are used to 'talk" to the GPS, and your receiver) and enough motor outputs as although you will only need 4 Motors you need 2 additional 'motor outputs' to control the gimbal.

So what frames are you looking at?

[tipsy trucker]

I can't find the two smaller frames but will say I favour the 500 anyway; it's a reptile 500 (clone I think, from hk) in carbon fibre. It looks like it might have built in power distribution. Takes 10" prop's apparently

I've tried a little bit of reading up and come up with a naza m v2 with the gps bits. Plus a compatible transmitter and receiver, probably secondhand. But obviously, if you can see me making a mistake please speak up.

If that sounds like it'll work and be fairly straightforward, I'll get those few bits ordered and take it from there.

[ched]

The reptile 500 is a clone of the TBS Discovery. The clones seen to be getting thin on the ground. Basically it was using F450 arms and different/extended top and bottom plates. Power distribution is basically enabling the esc to be connected to the battery which does make things easier but you need to make sure that what ever you need to power is given correct voltage. Some Flight Controllers need just 5V so you might need to add a voltage regulator to power some things. Be aware that you will kill components if you give them too high a voltage!

VERY IMPORTANT TO ALWAYS REMEMBER: - no props on while on your work bench. 10" props will cause you serious harm if they spin when you are not expecting it, so remove them if you have to work on the quad.

I have an F450 running 10" props, 25Amp esc, DJi 920kv motors, Naza V1 Lite (software flashed to full Naza version) +gps, extended legs with a 3 axis gimbal. I use a 3S 3300mAh battery which gives about 8 mins flight time, I could probably go with a bigger battery. I have not used it for about 12 months, too busy learning to fly my 220 Martian3  ::).

The Naza is a great Flight Controller with a few buts. The full Naza is expensive but the lite version is exactly the same but with hobbled firmware (FW) that makes it less stable. You can quite easily flash (overwrite) the lite FW with the full version. There is a post in the FC section here with the details. I don't think it will navigate between pre programmed positions. So just get a lite version and flash it.

On my F450 I am using a cheap (£40) Flysky i6 transmitter (tx) with a 10 channel ia10 receiver. Which works fine. I also use same tx with my Martian3 220 (fastish and nimblish) and my indoor Tiny7 quad. So it is versatile.

I would get a transmitter and a universal usb cable to connect it to a computer/laptop etc and then get FPVFreerider even just the demo version will let you use i6 to control a small quad. Reason being if you are not used to controlling a quad it's free to crash in the sim.

So a Reptile 500 clone should be fine with 10" props and be able to handle a gimbal and fpv kit no problem. It wont be a speed machine but will be good fun and it so much easier to fly than something smaller.

About 3 years ago I built a 250 size quad and gave up as it was too difficult to control. After a year I bought a F450 and it was/is great. It helped give me skills to fly the Martian3 220.

Forgot to say watch HobbyKing their p&p and which warehouse they are using. If it's their China warehouse you could get stung for import duty!
HobbyRC, eBay (UK sellers) or BangGood (3 weeks delivery and not much customer service but generally cheap).

[tipsy trucker]

Thankyou very much 

you're right, its certainly getting a little bit costly but I do tend to try to start off well rather than battling cheap rubbish and struggling because of it..... sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

~so, the naza idea might be a little bit more expensive than necessary? I've found the setup for about £160 which seemed a bit steep but I like the way it seems pretty straight forward - HOWEVER, if most setups are along the same lines, I've no problem with having a rethink.

[ched]

Thankyou very much 

you're right, its certainly getting a little bit costly but I do tend to try to start off well rather than battling cheap rubbish and struggling because of it..... sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

~so, the naza idea might be a little bit more expensive than necessary? I've found the setup for about £160 which seemed a bit steep but I like the way it seems pretty straight forward - HOWEVER, if most setups are along the same lines, I've no problem with having a rethink.

No problem.
Naza is very good, straight forward, simple, and reliable.

Naza Lite here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEO-M8N-GPS-Module-Compass-Naza-M-Lite-Flight-Controller-for-Multirotor-RC568/163189275568?hash=item25fed6bbb0:g:Y-YAAOSwcVtbaH82 for about £65. I dont know seller but use paypal and you should be OK.
The upgrade instructions to take the Lite to a V2 are here: https://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?topic=11295.0.

I tend to be working on a budget but try and get economical stuff that I have read works. So middle of the road prices. So not cheapest stuff but I don't need max performance for racing etc.
The FlySky i6 transmitter is less than £40 (ebay Uk sellers) and is reasonable. At about £95 you could get a Taranis QX7 which would probably be all the tx you would ever need https://www.hobbyrc.co.uk/frsky-24ghz-taranis-q-x7-black but the range probably wont be much different to the i6. So the extra money is in quality and the additional functions you get but the i6 does everything I have ever needed (throttle, yaw, pitch , roll, 2 axis gimbal control, 2 way remote video switching, flight mode switch, arm, buzzer, flip mode etc - I have updated the FW on this as well though.)

[Reman]

Just adding an opinion about transmitters.
I'm a die hard Flysky fan so this is pretty hard to say........

If I was starting now I'd most likely go for an FRSky Taranis Q X7. Pound for pound I don't feel it's better than any of the FlySky kit, But it's pretty much the defacto standard at the minute, And because of that, If you eventually sell it because you want to upgrade or you're getting out of the hobby, the percentage of it's original cost you'll get back is higher than if you went for a FlySky, Futaba, Spektrum, Or one of the many other brands out there.

It's the same sort of thing with goggles. If it doesn't say "Fatshark" or "Aomway Commander" on them most second hand buyers won't pay anywhere near as much.

[tipsy trucker]

Ok, I've just filled my basket in ebay just to get an idea of overall price really so can change.
Flysky tx&rx (10ch)
Secondhand naza m v2 with all its bits
Reptile frame kit
4x esc's, simonK with free battery alarm
5v regulator (I think the fc might have one but it's only £3 so added it just in case).

I'm stuck on motors and prop's at the moment though - the frame recommends 10-11" prop's. I found 2212 930kv motors that said 1060 prop but didn't say anything about the size of the hole through the middle; they had a 3.15mm shaft but that had a nut that clamped onto it with a collet and converted the shaft into a thread but there was no information about the thread's size. Anyone help?

[ched]

The Flysky i6 will do 14 channels if you flash free firmware. You just need an adapter or the data cable. I can show you pages to get fw and flash it. I think the i6x does 10 channels out of the box. The FS-iA10B receiver is the one I use on my F450 and it works well.

There is a FlySky i6s which is 10ch by default and has the rotary potentiometers on the top corners, which is a better position to control the gimbal. So that would be good plus it has a usb port which might connect to your computer to practice on a sim.

The simonK esc are a bit old now but should work fine with the Naza.

5v regulator might be handy and at £3 is worth having handy.

2212 930kv motors sound about right for 10" prop. The colleted motors are generally poor quality. These are ok manufacturer wise but they will take 2-3 weeks to arrive https://goo.gl/48BMSV and are about £24 for a set of 4. They are budget motors so not the best efficiency but they should be ok. They have flats on the shaft so you need matching props but it means the props cant slip on the motors.
A battery alarm is very important. Lipo batteries need to be treated with respect as they can go on fire if not treated properly!! They should not be discharges below about 3.5v per cell so an alarm can be set to alert you of that. One thing to remember is if you are out of ear shot of your quad an audible alarm on the quad wont help!!!!!
So the i6 tx can have an extra little voltage monitoring device that plugs into the ia10b rx and the flight battery and gives you a read out on the transmitter. With updated fw you can set alarm limits as well.
If you are flying fpv there is an addon for the naza that overlays various data on the video that you see on goggles. Like full gps co ordinates, battery voltage, heading, how many sats you have locked (VERY important to get good number locked before flight in case you need to activate the return to home(take off position) function) https://goo.gl/d74n5v Its about £25.

[tipsy trucker]

  Thanks again ched.

Any recommendations regarding esc's? I think maybe the easiest option would be a set of motors, esc's and prop's all in one go. I've no problem with going up to 11" prop's if it's beneficial. The overall aim being battery life but with the ability to hold it's own against a breeze (i.e. not expecting miracles).

[ched]

You need to ensure that the esc you select can take both the voltage you will use (3s or 4S) and the maximum current capability is above max draw from motor.

If you go with 11" props 920kv motors are probably a little high. You would need more like 800kv or even a little lower kv motors.

The DJI motors on my F450 state on them that for 3S battery 10" props (1045 on mine) and for 4S 8" props.
Basically bigger props slower rotation and to a degree longer flight time. I only have 3300mAh 3S batteries for my f450 and get about 8-10mins but I could probably go up to 3S 4500mAh battery and get 12mins maybe. But if you go with too big a battery it gets too heavy and flight time drops!!

I will try and have a look at motors/esc later but have to go to work now.

[ched]

Just had a quick look and found these : https://amzn.to/2N4yIFY set of 4 motors and esc at £45. They only have 1 review and that is a stupid review as they are complaining about length of screws. You would need different length screws for a carbon fibre arm to a plastic one. So you might have to buy extra screws the correct length anyway.
On that note if you use screws that are too long you can damage the motors!!!!! The screws can not be allowed to touch the windings inside the motor or they will damage it!!!!

The motors / esc above are budget ones and I have no idea if they are any good as I have not seen the make before!!!!!

[tipsy trucker]

Cheers fella, I don't really want to spend a fortune on motors/prop's for starting out but would like to go with something known to be good for the money - I'll look em up when I get home

[Jakalas]

I started out with a budget Chinese build as well a few years ago, and I can honestly say that you will be better off spending some money on a good set of ESC's and motors.

98% of the issues I had back then was due to poor quality motors and ESC's and it almost resulted in me giving up on the hobby. That all turned around the day I installed some quality components.

There is some debate as to what part takes the next priority slot...

[tipsy trucker]

Here's the list so far (it's all somewhere in the post).

Reptile 500 carbon fibre frame
Flysky i6x with receiver (10ch)
4x sunnysky 2212 980kv
4x 30A bl_heli esc's
Naza M v2 with GPS
Graupner nylon/carbon 1145 prop's  (though after rereading on here I will probably order 1045 instead
Prop mounts for the motors
5v voltage regulator

I think that's enough to get it off of the ground (apart from batteries, the next question). Anything I've missed?

So..... 4s or 3s? It's not going to be all that light and I'm more interested in flight time than speed (but from the little I've read, 4s for power as it's heavy - 3s for bigger prop's and longer flight time so it's a conundrum!)

And, I saw another thread where someone was suggesting 2x4000mah in parallel instead of 1 8000 mah, so if one breaks somehow it won't just drop out of the sky - I think that's the way forward but open to your input (mah here are just an example, I guess 2x3000 would probably be about as big/heavy as I can realistically go?

[Elmattbo]

If you parallel batteries it doesn’t give you redundancy in the way you suggest and the battery is unlikely to break without being physically damaged. In that case the damaged cell will drop its voltage causing the healthy cell in parallel to discharge to the lower voltage one, with a risk of fire. Incredibly unlikely though.
If you do decide to parallel them, just be careful to match the cell voltages closely before connecting them.


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[tipsy trucker]

No no, that's all I needed to hear, thankyou