The standard newbie question: What first "proper" quad....

[VooDoo]

Hi all,

My first post and as you';d expect, I';m looking for a bit of advice.   I';ve been flying a Red5 Xseries quadcopter for a few months now and I';m thinking about going for something a bit more advanced and with a view to trying out FPV flying.   My requirements are something about 250 size, not too expensive, capable of delivering a good FPV experience and something I could use to join in a few races (it doesn';t need to be capable of winning races, I have no illusions about that.  I just fancy giving it a go for the craic).  It will also need to be fairly easy to repair :) . I';ve been reading the forums for a while now.  At first I had thoughts of building a drone myself (which I';m still not completely adverse to), but after reading about the intricacies of making sure all the bits are compatible and the potential pit falls I';m all but decided to buy something RTF.

So after doing a bit more research I';ve come across the Eachine Wizard X220 Freestyle.  For just shy of £200 for a whole set up it seems to fit the bill. 

So, my questions around this are:

> Do you folks think the x220 will meet my requirments?
> Is there anything else I should be looking at for the money (or there abouts)?
> What are Eachine like for spares?  Will I still be able to get replacement bits in future?  Or doesn';t it matter as I could use any compatible off the shelf bits?
> Is it going to be able to support minor upgrades?  I';ve read the camera could be better and it seems relatively cheap to upgrade.  Are there any potential compatibility issue with this?
> Is the transceiver that comes with the x220 any good and could it be used with other quads?
> Whats the jump in required skill likely to be going from the Xseries to the X220?
> Is the x220 likely to be affected by wind as much as the Red5 Xseries quad?  (I can only really fly it in fairly still conditions or it ends up all over the place).

Now, once I';ve worked out how to keep this new quad airborne, for FPV I';m going to want some goggles.  While the Fat Sharks look the business, they';re a little expensive for me to see if its something I';ll get in to.  Eachine have a range of what are reasonably priced goggles.  The question is, are they any good?  I want something that going to be good enough to deliver a good FPV experience or there seems little point in getting all this.

Question time again:
> I';ve seen the Eachine EV800D FPV Moggles.  Are they good enough to deliver a good FPV experience (I dont need the monitor option really, but they just seemed good and well priced)?  I presume being from the same manufacturer they will be compatible with the video transmitter that comes with the X220.
> Is there anything else I should be looking at in a similar price range?  And if so will it be compatible with the X220?
> Can any goggle be used with any drone?  For example, Could I potentially upgrade to Fat Sharks if I found got in to it?  or would they be compatible with another quad if I bought one in future?

I think that';s it for now, but I';m sure your replies will generate plenty more questions.

Thanks in advance.

VC

[VooDoo]

Actually, after all that, I';ve just found the Eachine falcon 250 on sale for £118 without transceiver and £160 odd with their own transceiver. 

All the above questions still apply to the Falcon though.

The only really negative thing I';ve found in reviews is that the transceiver that comes with the RTF version is a bit cheap feeling.  If I went for the ATF version, is there a relatively good transceiver you';d recommend between £40 and £80 ish?  Or should I just get the stock controller and upgrade if I get in to it?

Thanks

VC

[Cheredanine]

Hi,
Let';s deal with the quad first
The wizard is ok, fairly mediocre to be honest but cheap, it won';t stand up to a crash as well as a decent quad, but then it is cheap

If someone was looking for a first 250 class (I will come on to that) then it is a reasonable investment but you will outgrow it quickly

Rtf are mostly not gonna perform well for the price (essentially because the price includes the cost of someone making it)

I would strongly recomend building your own. There are numerous advantages to this approach including - but not limited to -
-No wasting money on having someone else build it
-because you build it you understand it and how to repair it
-the best/most cost effective manufacturer of say escs is not the same as that for frames or motors or flight controllers, you can build a much better quad even for the same price
-no bespoke fixtures or fittings, you can replace/upgrade easily

The downside is really only you have to solder which means you need a decent soldering iron and to learn a skill which is pretty easy (or know someone who can)

Re 250 - this is the traditional class but most now are around the 200-220 size, the description "250" really means flying 5 inch props

If you decide to build your own take a look at the 250builds section, loads of sample builds there of all types, but a quick rough example:
Chinese qav210 clone - pure carbon frame under £20
Spedix es25 escs - £30
Matek f4 fc/osd and pdb £35
Hs1177 and Fx799t vtx and pagoda antenna £50
Average set of motors £50
That is a better setup than the wizard and comes in about £180, add your Rx, radio and goggles

Now vtx
All are pretty much compatible (there are a few quirks) provided they do the same freq and antenna orientation (rhcp vs LHCP) is the same

When buying goggles make sure the Rx freqs match the vtx freqs, look for diversity antenna on the goggles if not true diversity recievers

I use fatshark does, I did try a set of the box goggles when I was sent some to test, they were ok, if I was gonna have to use them I would have added more foam padding, but if I had never flown fatsharks I would have been happy, goggles like fs and skyzone make it more immersive, I got my missus, who has never done fpv, to try both one after the other, her comment was with the box goggles it felt like you were watching the drone, with the fatsharks it felt like you were in it, I think that is a pretty good description, but don';t let it put you off
Otherwise yt reviews are, to a degree your friend, although many reviewers suffer from confirmation bias

[Cheredanine]

On the falcon - most of that stuff was mediocre 2 years ago, it has less than 4:1 power to weight ratio, it is just old crap they couldn';t sell at the time, they are now trying to shift, it may not even run modern software

It will fly, and if you were a complete beginner and just wanted to potter around a park three or four times each summer it may last you two years

But otherwise NO

[ched]

I would agree with Cheredanine that building your own is a little tricky but you are in the right place for help.
Have a look at the 250 build section.
What ever ';racing'; quad you get you will crash and break things. So knowing how it fits together and having the tools to fix it gets you back in the air quickly.
If you want to know if the components you are looking at are compatible just post them here and someone will give you some feedback before you order.

If you really do want to just buy a ready to fly the Wizard has been improved and updated recently. It includes full carbon fibre frame (stronger), a Flight Controller with On Screen Display (shows battery voltage, current used etc on your goggles).
It is called the Wizard X220S. The complete version with battery, charger etc is  https://goo.gl/mts2T4  £195
As for goggles... Box (cheap ones  ::)) are what I use. I have never used the fatshark ones so don';t know what I am missing. Ok so they are a little bulk to carry and make you look silly but fpv is fun, lots of fun.
These ones have a diversity receiver (better reception as 2 receivers and it selects best one, in simple terms) and has a DVR (for recording flight footage in SD on a microSd card) So you can playback and see how you are doing but may also be helpful to playback so you have better idea where you crashed  ::) They also have a focus adjustment which may help if you have old eyes. https://goo.gl/6k8rFa  £63
Alternatively a little cheaper and no DVR, single rx, and no focus https://goo.gl/8qFqRn £43 but they do convert into monitor.

As for tx, I have a FlySky i6 which looks very similar to the one that comes with the Wizard x220s. The Flysky version can be updated to run 10 channels, timers and more telemetry (data back to tx like flight battery voltage and rx signal strength).

Anyway have a look at  the Wizard but consider building your self. We will help  ::)

Forgot to say. When you build your first quad the sense of achievement when it first flies is great. You actually put together the components and made it fly 

One other thing. Most tx allow you to buy a cable to connect to a pc. This enables you to run a simulator like FPVFreerider (about £7) and this enables you to learn fpv and acro flight mode without worrying about weather or braking things till you get the hang of acro (you need to fly acro to race or do acrobatics).

[VooDoo]

Wow, great feedback guys.  Thank you.

I would actually like to have a go at building my own and I have soldered in the past.  I think I might just review the 250 build stuff and then list the bits I';m planning on buying so you guys can highlight / correct any potential problems.

I';ll be in touch soon. Thanks again.



VC

[ched]

A cheeky link to my current build http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?topic=21681.0
It includes a £60 runcam split (HD recording and fpv) which you could just use a HS1177 (£25 no recording) then get a FlySky i6, a charger plus goggles and you are ready to go  ::)
While you decide on bits get a FlySky i6 and FPVFreerider and start practising  ::)

[VooDoo]

So a few of you have the FlySky i6 Tx, so I take it it will do everything I';m going to need.  As a starter I think I';ll get one of them ordered.  How do you update them to get the extra telemetry you mentioned?

Do they come with the cable to connect it up to your PC for the FPV Freerider software?  Is it a special cable or a standard USB type cable?

This says it';s the latest version so I guess its the one I want:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/FS-Transmitter-Receiver-helicopter-ARRIVAL-x/dp/B00PF7DQBI

Seems like a good price too.

VC

[ched]

This looks like the cable I use for FPVFreerider http://amzn.to/2v8U5ho about £10

FPVFreerider has a free version that is just 1 level and limited things you can change but it gives you an idea if it runs on your pc/laptop/tablet etc. It should run on most stuff. I have it running an a cheapy Chuwi Hi8 tablet.

As for the firmware you need a FTDI adapter http://amzn.to/2udx6Vj about £5. Or about £2.50 on ebay: https://goo.gl/NkPDDn
There is a long and complex thread about the firmware here: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?2486545-FlySky-FS-i6-8-channels-firmware-patch%21/page160 but just look on youtube and I am sure you will find out how to upgrade.

The only thing I would say about the tx you linked to was that the receiver isn';t great. The ia6B is better or the X6B is even better as it has flight battery voltage port built in https://goo.gl/4XByZ5 £8.65. Both the ia6B and the x6b do iBus (which is better communications to flight controller) and have dual antennas which give better range.
BangGood is a Chinese sort of Amazon. They are cheap, take a good 2-3 weeks to arrive and you dont get UK warantees but they are cheap  ::)
For example the FlySky i6 with the ia6B https://goo.gl/QrN8fD is £34.63 delivered in about 2-3 weeks 

[VooDoo]

OK. Because I want the thing now to play with on FPV Freerider I';m gonna go with this from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/FS-Transmitter-Receiver-helicopter-ARRIVAL-x/dp/B00PF7DQBI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1501965048&sr=8-2&keywords=flysky+i6

...and because I won';t need it for a little while, I';ll get one of these ordered from Bandgood:

https://www.banggood.com/Flysky-X6B-2_4G-6CH-i-BUS-PPM-PWM-Receiver-for-AFHDS-i6s-i6-i6x-Transmitter-p-1101513.html?p=FU28156904672014077T

All good?

VC

[ched]

TX looks good. You will still need the usb cable I linked to.
RX looks good. I have one I am using on my Martian 3 build. It actually has solder pads on one side so you don';t need to use the connectors if you dont want to. The voltage port has 3 pins. I think black, red and yellow, You only need to connect the red to battery +ve to get flight battery reading on TX.
One silly thing with the x6b is the holes in it are 2.5mm not the 3mm needed to mount it on normal standoffs. I opened up the holes to 3mm but then the nut to hold it down gets very close to the led!!!

You can also get FPVFreerider on android and with a OTG cable to the tx usb adapter you can actually use your proper tx to play the sim on a phone!!!

I have Quanum V2 goggles (old and about £30) that I use for fpv. I bought a hdmi to composite adapter (about £10) and now I can use my Chuwi Hi8 win10 8" tablet to plug my tx and goggles into and practice fpv. It';s very helpful being able to use the kit you use when flying.

Have Fun.

[Ern Stock]

Hi
To try and reply to a couple of your other questions,
  Presuming the red5x is like a Syma x5 ( brushed motors , 1s 3.7v ~400 mah battery ) , then any brushless ';racer'; will handle wind much much better.
  As far as " jump in required skill" goes , if you  have plenty of experience on the red5x it will help.
Spend Plenty of time on new craft just taking off , hovering - landing , then add in some slow fly to different nearby landing pad.
All line of sight.

Things that will be noticeably different :
  No longer a toy - massive respect needed for spinney-round bits if/when battery connected.  ( learn and practice a ';disarm - check disarmed '; routine , followed by a '; put transmitter carefully down , ( possibly extra check that there';s no response from throttle , ) , unplug battery )
Momentum - greatly increased due  to extra mass ( am no scientist please correct me if ness) - so , you will no doubt be learning in a self-level mode ,
When you let go of the sticks the racer will travel further on its heading before stopping.
Remember it';s half a kilo of stuff flying about and can do more damage than the 100g (?) of the x5 .

Hope this helps a bit.

   

[Two-Six]

Spec it for a 4 cell battery too.  You WILL want MORE SPEED 

[Two-Six]

Have you seen this?
Bruce reviews the eachine Wizzard not the Falcon but I am sure they are much of a muchness.  The review is not at all positive.  It looks like it was made using all the cr@p they couldn';t really sell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbXOTRGaMiM

[mitchell.atheis]

I would go for the x220s. It';s all upgraded parts from the usual x220. They have just re-released the upgraded frame also so will be stronger then the review say up until now

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[VooDoo]

I';ve decided I';m definitely going to build my own.  Ordered the FlySky i6 and USB cable to link it to my computer last night. 

Yeah, I got thinking about how much more potentially dangerous my new project would be when my Xseries bit me yesterday.  Knocked the throttle as I went to pick the quad up.  A (not too) painful lesson learned.  I figure a racing quad could have easily gone down the the bone.

Been reading the 250 threads and noticed Cheredanine had linked this frame:

https://www.banggood.com/Realacc-X210-210mm-3mm4mm-Carbon-Fiber-FPV-Racing-Frame-w-5V-12V-PDB-p-1069204.html

Bit more than I wanted to spend on a frame but I like the look of it.  I did find a review that said the bolts that come with the 4mm frame were a bit short and the top piece of carbon above where the camera goes doesn';t stay in.  Has anyone else found this?  I guess this may be the price you (don';t) pay when buying stuff on the cheap from China.  Or they may have sorted it out now?

[Cheredanine]

Lol that is a qav-x clone, here is the origional
http://www.hobbyrc.co.uk/lumenier-qav-x-fpv-racing-quadcopter-frame-5-arms
Now tell me you didn';t want to spend that much!
Bolts are easy to replace cheaply, try carbolts.co.uk

The build on a qav-x is ok, although I was referring to the charpu edition qav210
An example of that is below, this was just the first one in the search list off banggood, it has the 4mm baseplate and comes with a pdb and a go pro mount, you can probably find 3mm or one without the GoPro cheaper:
https://www.banggood.com/Realacc-210-V2-210MM-4mm-Carbon-Fiber-Racing-Frame-w-5V-12V-BEC-PDB-Runcam-Mobius-Gopro-Camera-Base-p-1063698.html?rmmds=search

[VooDoo]

Actually, I think I prefer the battery being on top of it.  Keeps it out of the way.  Found another realacc frame.  Would the 220 be any good:

https://m.banggood.com/Realacc-X4R-X5R-X6R-180mm-220mm-250mm-4mm-Arm-Carbon-Fiber-Frame-Kit-with-BEC-Output-PDB-p-1091647.html . 

Or is the qav design better with the Base plate and arms being one piece?  Also, is the pdB that comes with these likely to be any good? One of the reviews says it';s a matek board, but I can';t see the make listed in the specs. Getting there with the parts list...

[ched]

The arms and base being 1 part reduces weight but if you break an arm you have to replace the entire 4 arms and base plate.
Depending on the components you are intending to use will determine if you need a pdb. i.e. if you go for certain types of Flight controller like : Holybro Kakute F4 AIO https://goo.gl/xAu1Ab at £32 takes battery voltage, and has pads at each corner for escs, has an integrated OSD, current sensor and a soft mounted gyro. Plus it has a 5v 1.5A regulator built in, so you might not need an additional pdb.

[Cheredanine]

If you are going 4mm I would stick with the single baseplate, generally 4mm are referred to as "tanks"

[VooDoo]

I think you';re right.  I';m likely to ditch it a bit as I learn to fly it, so over built is going to be a good thing.  Realacc 210 V2 it is.

So, flight controller and PDB.  Is there an advantage to having them integrated or not?  As this is my first build I';ll want to err on simplicity I guess.  The PDB that comes with the frame appears to be unbranded.  Should I ditch it because it';s likely to be pants?

[Cheredanine]

Hard to say about the existing.

For simplicity and inexpensive I would look at sometching like this:

http://www.hobbyrc.co.uk/matek-f405-osd-f4-betaflight-osd-flight-controller
And
http://www.hobbyrc.co.uk/matek-fchub-6s-with-184a-current-sensor-pdb

Matek are a cheap but generally reliable make, the fc has everything you need, including an osd, the ribbon cable keeps it neat and tidy

[VooDoo]

OK.  Do I need to consider any other components when choosing PDB and FC like the battery I';ll be running, motors, etc?

[Cheredanine]

Mostly the pdb and  fc will cope with any 5 inch set up on 3 or 4s at least, those certainly do.
You do need to work out all the components and how you will connect them but something like that will simplify it right down,
I would recomend putting together a kit list and stocking it up on the 250 builds section, people will then comment as a whole over any gotchas and tweaks they may recommend

[ched]

One thing that might be worth looking at is a sub 250gms quad like Cheredanine has been building lately.
OK so it';s not as easy as a bigger 220mm quad but as they are under 250gms IF the legislation comes in you will be fine, no registration etc.
On second thoughts not sure if a sub 250 is feasible as a first build....
Probably best to build a 220mm size to learn with.
My 220 Martian 3 build is here http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?topic=21681.0 with full parts list and lots of ramblings...... on hold while I wait for new FC as original has faulty video chip.
It will be my first acro quad and was built on a budget, so no racing spec components, just cheap and cheerful bits that are hopefully OK to get me learning.
I started on a zmr250 kit from Banggood a couple of years ago but I wasn';t good enough to get it to fly under control, plus components were very poor. Sort of gave up with it and eventually sort of swapped for a F450 (big) and added a gimbal etc. I do enjoy flying it but now I can fly that fpv I want more speed and manoeuvrability  ::)

[Cheredanine]

TBH mate I considered pointing at that air-ro build, particularly the cheaper parts I suggested, it is an easy build and frankly I am loving that quad