Help with new build - Chameleon Ti

[mo_miah]

So decided to build another 5in quad
i really love the look of the chameleon ti so starting with that
all of my flying is freestyle/acro and exploring landscapes, i have bags of dal 5040c so will stick to these
cam and vtx will be swift 2 and tbs unify with triumph antenna, i already have this combo in my other quad and have no issues with this, the dynamic range is great and very clean signal

now the bits i need some advice on
Motors - my current quad uses emax 2205 2300kv, i read that the dal 5040c perform better will higher kv motors, also the motor trend seems to me 2207/2306, what would you guys recommend?

escs- looks like spedix are the cheap and realiable guys on the block so will go for these unless there's a better option?

FC - matek seem well laid out and common enough to find help on them, do i go F4 or F7, im a frsky sbus guy so maybe F7 would be better? is the matek F722 any good?

ideally i would like to buy from quadcopters uk but will consider other uk shops, nothing from abroad please


Parts

Frame: Chameleon Ti
Motors: emax ls2206 2550kv
Props: Dal 5040c
Esc: dys aria blheli32bit
FC: helio spring
PDB: matek mini power hub v3
VTX: TBS unify
vtx antenna: tbs triumph
Cam: Swift 2
RX: R-XSR

[Cheredanine]

So decided to build another 5in quad
i really love the look of the chameleon ti so starting with that
all of my flying is freestyle/acro and exploring landscapes, i have bags of dal 5040c so will stick to these
cam and vtx will be swift 2 and tbs unify with triumph antenna, i already have this combo in my other quad and have no issues with this, the dynamic range is great and very clean signal

Hi mate, I am about to embark on moving my dronewolf gear across to a chameleon ti, so could be similar, let’s see:

now the bits i need some advice on
Motors - my current quad uses emax 2205 2300kv, i read that the dal 5040c perform better will higher kv motors, also the motor trend seems to me 2207/2306, what would you guys recommend?

the dal 5040c cyclones are a beautifully smooth prop, but do need medium high kv to light up, I am looking at 24-2600kv, initially will be on my Lumenier freybot 2206 2450kv, a good 2205 would also be good (ZMX finX23 2600kv work fantastically - available from acrodrones, hawksky have a similar motor cheaper)
You don’t want a bigger motor than 2206 really imho, any extra torque forces you to fly mostly in the lower part of the throttle, it will reduce the granularity of control.
The eMax light series 2206 2500kv look quite a good choice also.
Am not intending to go down the f40/f60/hypetrain route for the reason above (will spend most of my time flying with a reduced throttle range

In the end I will probably go for xnova 2206 2600kv if I don’t find something I like.
The Lumenier ones I am using are available as standard, freybot and skitzo and are really nice, they do develop a little vertical play over crashes (all motors do) and use a c clip so you can’t just tighten a screw, but hobbyrc have them on sale

escs- looks like spedix are the cheap and realiable guys on the block so will go for these unless there's a better option?

Ok this is an interesting one and one I discussed with Ryan from miniquad test bench, when blheli_s was cutting edge, apart from ESCs with hardware timing (tbs bulletproof) neither of us could tell any difference in flight between the different brands of esc. Spedix were simply the cheapest (about 60% the price of their competitors) which is where their reputation came from, I don’t think the price is cheaper nowerdays so they are living on past glory
The hardware timing ones were smoother but st the cost of some top end. Blheli_s is still entirely usable for racers but if you really want smooth (eg freestyle with an action cam) you need blheli32 with 48khz motor pwm.
Given the height of the stack on a cammy, even a cammy ti, I would go for single ESCs rather than 4 in 1 (and there have been a few problems with 4 in one recently)
About 30 amps is more than enough (I will be using sunrise Siskin 32 amp) but other than general specs, I wouldn’t balk at Spedix, Sunrise, Aiken, littlebee, airbot (I have blheli32 ESCs from all of these) or other makes. I would look for the cheapest.

FC - matek seem well laid out and common enough to find help on them, do i go F4 or F7, im a frsky sbus guy so maybe F7 would be better? is the matek F722 any good?

matek is a budget brand. If it was a racer I would avoid as it is gonna get pushed, I would rather use an airbot. That said right now I would use a helio spring, it is kind of next generation, and will run butterflight better than even f7s (again hobbyrc), and not expensive

ideally i would like to buy from quadcopters uk but will consider other uk shops, nothing from abroad please


Parts

Frame: Chameleon Ti
Motors: ?
Props: Dal 5040c
Esc: ?
FC: ?
VTX: TBS unify and tbs triumph
Cam: Swift 2

Watch the cam, it needs a certain mounting hole format (the cams with 3 holes) to properly fit the champ ti

RX: R-XSR

[UrbanFPV]

My current combination for my Chammy Ti is:
Motors F40 Pro II 2400
Cyclone 5046
Dys 4in1 Esc
Dys F4 Pro v2

I like the Dys v2 combination because they've removed the header connection between the boards - which was prone to breaking (and did on my Talon), but maintained an easy solderless connection between the boards.

I would say the Chammy is too heavy for my current motor/prop combi and I spend a lot of time mashing the throttle to pull out of high energy maneuverers.  It really needs more bottom end.

[Elmattbo]

My current combination for my Chammy Ti is:
Motors F40 Pro II 2400
Cyclone 5046
Dys 4in1 Esc
Dys F4 Pro v2

I like the Dys v2 combination because they've removed the header connection between the boards - which was prone to breaking (and did on my Talon), but maintained an easy solderless connection between the boards.

I would say the Chammy is too heavy for my current motor/prop combi and I spend a lot of time mashing the throttle to pull out of high energy maneuverers.  It really needs more bottom end.

Surprised that you’re finding F40 Pro and 5046 props lacking power. What weight is your build?


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[Cheredanine]

Surprised that you’re finding F40 Pro and 5046 props lacking power. What weight is your build?


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Absolutely agree, that power train is used by some of the best racers in the UK. Not sure that is what he said though, that setup is about top end, cammy is a freestyle quad, generally I’d you want to spend your time at WOT you use a lighter frame, I am assuming therefore what he means is the low throttle stuff common to acro/freestyle rather than racing (which is where 2206/2205 and a less aggressive prop is king)

[UrbanFPV]

My frame is a freestyle frame so I prefer more bottom end.  Its easier to blend the throttle and be smooth. My talon is like this with the same setup, but its lighter and therefore easier to control.

I meant f40 iii.  I was probably thinking about buying some f40 pros.

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[Elmattbo]

Ah I’ve got some f40iii on my alien and I quite like them. I got them for low end torque rather than out and out speed and they do that just fine.

They’re certainly not the screaming racers that the F40 Pro are but they work well for freestyle. What’s happening to cause you issues on high energy maneuvres? Prop wash?

Maybe try dropping to a 5043 prop, the lower pitch accelerates better and isn’t so heavy on the amp draw for a given amount of thrust. I think of it a bit like driving a car up a hill. Lower pitch is like a lower gear, higher pitch like a higher gear!

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[Cheredanine]

Lol not trying to start and argument but F40 are racing motors they have low end torque so they can spin up heavy, high load props quickly (listen to a racer fly, it is all throttle pump).
F60 are the acro motors. That said he is running cyclone 5040s, brilliant, light low load props. f60 would be under propped (doesn’t make much difference but carrying weight you don’t need). Fast 2205 or 06 is the way to go with those props.
Some stores still stocking returner r4 2600kv, that would be about spot on if he moved to gemfan wind dancers or hq5x4.3x3

[UrbanFPV]

Ah I’ve got some f40iii on my alien and I quite like them. I got them for low end torque rather than out and out speed and they do that just fine.

They’re certainly not the screaming racers that the F40 Pro are but they work well for freestyle. What’s happening to cause you issues on high energy maneuvres? Prop wash?

Maybe try dropping to a 5043 prop, the lower pitch accelerates better and isn’t so heavy on the amp draw for a given amount of thrust. I think of it a bit like driving a car up a hill. Lower pitch is like a lower gear, higher pitch like a higher gear!

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I love them on the talon.  They're precise and smooth. But the extra weight of the chammy I just feel it needs a bit more bottom end grunt.  Not a massive amount... just a bit.



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[mo_miah]

So do i need a more aggressive prop and motor to match? Or would a 2206 and 5040c be ok?

[Cheredanine]

I have run t5949c on 2205 2600kv, (ZMX finX23) work brilliantly, smoother and more accurate than racing setups, of course they have less top end.
I have also run them on other motors, up to r5s (2306 2450kv)
The props are so light and low load they really don’t need powerful motors to turn them, they need fast ones to give you a decent top end keep the transition speed up.

For freestyle, unless you want fast, they are the best prop I have flown, however, a close competitor is the gemfan winddancer,  the winddancer blade, as well as being slightly more aggressive pitch (5042) is wider and more ridged. It works well with any common motor speed although being heavier, less flexible and carrying more load it is slightly less forgiving of poor motors and has a slower transition speed.

Behind those you are into hq5x4.3x3v1s and all the clones thereof, which are generally good props.

So the grief is really if you want to run the t5040c your motor sweet spot is small. If you are prepared to change props, then get Sind dancers or the hq and you have a broader range of motors for the best performance, pitch a good motor manufacturer, motor, brother, etc

[UrbanFPV]

So do i need a more aggressive prop and motor to match? Or would a 2206 and 5040c be ok?

I would say don't constrain yourself to the props you happen to have. Props are cheap and consumable so experiment with a few different types.  Motor wise I would suggest 2500kv or more and reduce the pitch of the prop the higher kv you have.

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[Cheredanine]

I would say don't constrain yourself to the props you happen to have. Props are cheap and consumable so experiment with a few different types.  Motor wise I would suggest 2500kv or more and reduce the pitch of the prop the higher kv you have.

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Agree on both points

[mo_miah]

Ok so props to one side
What makes a good freestyle motor?
Any bad points about these bottom open motors? Seems like the coils are more likely to be damaged
Any harm having a 2306/2207 motor and 5040c? I use 5040c because i like the resolution but as my skills improve im likely to use something like 5046c

[daich]

I recently built a Chameleon Ti
build list -> https://rotorbuilds.com/build/11246

This was my first try with a huge motor (2307 2450kv weighing in at 35g per motor) It flies really nice with the gemfan 5152

I tried it with some DAL 5045 cyclones this past weekend and it just wasn't the same - It gripped ok in turns but was missing the top end.

[Cheredanine]

Ok so let’s be clear, it will fly whatever you do.

As a general rule as stator width increases the torque peak comes lower down the throttle range. Now this is, as above, useful for racers, who have heavy props and pump throttle, so are frequently accelerating the props (and racing props are hard to accelerate, from zero upwards.
It isn’t how most freestyle/acro fliers or park fliers fly. They tend to be a lot smoother on the throttle and much more constant.  Hence there is really no benefit and indeed some downside (although small) in increasing stator width.

As stator height increases the taorque curve becomes less pronounced (the areas of low torque get more)

What you need is a motor that has enough torque to rapidly transition between speeds at any throttle.

The heavier the props, the harder that is.

Arguably why not run a 2210? Well there is a limit to how quickly it will transition, it is diminishing returns, and motor weight is a serious factor for agility (because of its distance from the centre of rotation - think back to high school physics and “moments” the effect is the distance from the pilot times the weight, so 2grams extra weight on the motors which are, let’s say 8cm from the centre of rotation, is about equivalent to using a lipo that is 30grams heavier but 2cm from the centre of rotation)

So you need a 22xx motor that can turn whatever props you use well and is not over propped, a good 2205 will generally do it, but 2206 is about the sweet spot. 2207 even more so, but you are starting to add weight for very small (noticable?) benefit

Open bottoms -dead easy to clean, crap falls out (ask people at meet up number 4, I had closed bottoms and part of a balloon wedged between the bell and the base, wouldn’t happen with open bottoms), also provides extra cooling, etc etc but for that one in a hundred or more crash where something gets in, you take your pick.

Kind of depends on your budget too. Brother are just releasing returner r6 in 2207 they would be very tempting to me. I may put xnova on mine though, they have always been super smooth, but they are pricey

[Cheredanine]

I recently built a Chameleon Ti
build list -> https://rotorbuilds.com/build/11246

This was my first try with a huge motor (2307 2450kv weighing in at 35g per motor) It flies really nice with the gemfan 5152

I tried it with some DAL 5045 cyclones this past weekend and it just wasn't the same - It gripped ok in turns but was missing the top end.

5152s are racing props, they don’t have low throttle grip. With 2307 2450 you have a racing style setup but the cammy won’t keep with a light racer. T5045c are old money, 5046 will give better racing flights,
None of those will give you low throttle control of an acro prop

[mo_miah]

thanks for the help everyone, i think i've got my parts list sorted (see 1st post)

[mo_miah]

Quick questions for all the chameleon owners. What size battery fits on the deck? Im using 4s 1550mah tattu batteries. Would these fot or would i need 1300mah?

[Cheredanine]

It depends a little mate, different manufacturers have different shapes/dimension, but flew my Cammy with 1550 tattu before I passed it on, should be fine